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Thread: Sax plating difference?

  1. #81
    SOTW Administrator SAXISMYAXE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kymarto
    Ooops, so sorry. I'm in Tel Aviv at the moment, providing reinforcement for my network, and leeching off a miserable wireless network. Please ignore the duplicate post, and if you're a moderator please delete it.

    Toby
    Done. Keep your head down over there my friend!
    Mike S.
    SOTW Administrator/Staff

  2. #82
    Distinguished SOTW Technician tbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kymarto
    Ooops, so sorry. I'm in Tel Aviv at the moment, providing reinforcement for my network, and leeching off a miserable wireless network. Please ignore the duplicate post, and if you're a moderator please delete it.

    Toby
    Stay safe and get out of there as soon as you can!

    Godspeed Toby

  3. #83
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kymarto
    It's like flat-earthers. They say "the world is flat.
    It's flat where I'm standing... But perhaps you should get in a hole. Be safe.

    Now back to the fun...


    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ)
    Just in passing Grumps, in my anecdotal example, you still confuse the issue of the setting up of the three saxophones - come to think of it, I think it was 4 - with the issue of the having one perception when he first played them, which changed as he played them longer.
    Thanks for clearing that up... by relying even more upon secondhand, subjective interpretations. I am no longer confused.

  4. #84
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kymarto
    Ooops, so sorry. I'm in Tel Aviv at the moment....
    So that makes you about 45 minutes away from where I live (same country, different city). Does the plating of the rockets make the sound different when they land?

  5. #85
    Distinguished SOTW Member kymarto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbone
    Stay safe and get out of there as soon as you can!

    Godspeed Toby
    Tel Aviv is OK, and they have a great beach here. Haifa is really lovely but a little dicey at the moment...

    I'm just glad I'm not in Lebanon, or god forbid Iraq...

    Toby

  6. #86
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
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    Sorry to stay off topic, but in case anyone was wondering, kymarto is right and there are no rockets heating Tel Aviv (I'm in Jerusalem by the way which is also safe). By the way, the chance of a rocket heating you (either kill you but mostly injure), even if you are in Haifa, is about 0.000000001% of the chance of getting killed by a car....

    Edited to explain more clearly after I read the post under mine.
    Last edited by clarnibass; 07-30-2006 at 06:40 AM.

  7. #87
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    I'd still prefer the car hitting me then a rocket!!!!
    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave dix
    I'd still prefer the car hitting me then a rocket!!!!
    Dave
    Yeah, you say that now but have you conducted a double blind test of this proposition?

    I doubt that the average sax player can tell the difference.
    The only useful metric is the width of the grin.
    :-)

  9. #89
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    What an irony. It took a bomb to defuse this topic. :-)

  10. #90

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    To get back to the subject I had a very old relaquer IV that I polished down to bare brass on the bell.I had it plated & overhauled by WWSAX.The sound is MUCH better,deeper and more resonant.It is also heavier to the feel when picking it up.I may have to use my 54 Tenor as a backup now. BTW those guys to tremendous work-the overhual was top notch.

  11. #91

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    i have two B&S-tenors, blacknickel (higher copper content) and silverplated (usual material): they sound alike (blind tested)

  12. #92
    Distinguished SOTW Technician tbone's Avatar
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    This poor dead horse is about beaten to a pulp!

  13. #93

    Default silver vs Laquer

    I own(ed) several saxes both in silver & laquer (mark 6 around 120xxx / buescher crat 1/ sml GM1 / 10M around 320xxx).
    Personnaly, I do hear and feel a difference in the way they play & sound:
    Silver seems to give a darker, more "woody" sound, is louder than plain laquer, and have a more even scale (that could explain why many classical player prefer silver)
    Laquer is more free blowing (with a tendencie to "overblow" quickly), give more character to the sound.
    BTW, I recently talked to Bob Mintzer who had his unlaquered VI goldplated. He said the goldplating added more color to the sound.

  14. #94
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    I wrapped string around the head of my flute and it sounded.......

    ......the same!

    It may have sounded different to a person who could see it - perhaps a more earthy sound?

    I haven't tried it on a sax neck yet.

  15. #95
    Distinguished SOTW Technician tbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byas-a-drink
    I recently talked to Bob Mintzer who had his unlaquered VI goldplated. He said the goldplating added more color to the sound.
    Was it the 4 to 7 microns of plating or the overhaul that made the difference?

    Here's some food for thought, a player may perceive differences in tone that the listeners do not. This is because you, as the player are directly in contact with your horn. It stands to reason that an unlacquered body would transfer vibrations easier than a lacquer coated body. Thus the player experiences a "perceived difference". The problem lies in the fact that the db level of a body tubes sympathetic vibrations is too far below that of the db level of the air column's to have any real effect on the horn's tone.

    Plating and/or lacquer makes about as much difference in a horn's tone as what color/material shirt you're wearing's effect on your singing voice's tone.

    That said, no one side of this arguement will ever convince the other. I quess that's why urban myths live on in spite of science!

    This debate reminds me of the time I went to the drag strip (The Rock) to watch my neighbor's car run. In the stands there were a bunch of guys betting on the races with each other. One older man was yelling at his son for betting on a certain race. He said. "what da he** do ya tink you is a doin'? Everyone knows dat da red cars are a faster than da blue cars! Y'all just a wastin' yo money!"

    Oops, the cat's out of the bag! Now everyone'll know that red cars are faster than blue cars!

  16. #96
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy
    To get back to the subject I had a very old relaquer IV that I polished down to bare brass on the bell.I had it plated & overhauled by WWSAX.The sound is MUCH better,deeper and more resonant.It is also heavier to the feel when picking it up.I may have to use my 54 Tenor as a backup now. BTW those guys to tremendous work-the overhual was top notch.
    But this is not the subject. If I had a saxophone overhauled and it didn't play MUCH better I'd be very upset. I don't see how your experience have anything to do with platings affecting sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by byas-a-drink
    I own(ed) several saxes both in silver & laquer (mark 6 around 120xxx / buescher crat 1/ sml GM1 / 10M around 320xxx).
    Personnaly, I do hear and feel a difference in the way they play & sound: Silver seems to give a darker, more "woody" sound, is louder than plain laquer, and have a more even scale (that could explain why many classical player prefer silver) Laquer is more free blowing (with a tendencie to "overblow" quickly), give more character to the sound.
    BTW, I recently talked to Bob Mintzer who had his unlaquered VI goldplated. He said the goldplating added more color to the sound.
    Are you seriously saying the plating made those differences and not the completely different design of the saxophones??! It is proven that different designs, even very small difference in bore (not to mention other more obvious differences between the models), make a lot of difference.

    I don't want to shut anyone up. If anyone want to write totally subjective opinions that say nothing about platings affecting sound, then fine. But as I mentioned before, in this thread I was trying to find more logical and reliable facts (as I think is clearly seen in my first post). I personally think it is a little bothering to see subjective unreliable opinions phrased as if they were facts that prove anything....

    Quote Originally Posted by tbone
    no one side of this arguement will ever convince the other. I quess that's why urban myths live on in spite of science!
    Doing a blindfold recording, with many saxophones, and letting those who believe the plating makes a difference try to guess correct, might be a start. Unfortunaly it doesn't seem like anyone has the time, money, recources, or will to do it.

    Maybe we should go back to the situation in Israel. At least it is a subject I definitely have a lot of knowledge about....

  17. #97

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    [quote]:
    Are you seriously saying the plating made those differences and not the completely different design of the saxophones??! It is proven that different designs, even very small difference in bore (not to mention other more obvious differences between the models), make a lot of difference.

    soory for misunderstanding, but I actually said, i had all those saxes in silver and in laquer: two V1, two crat 1, two SML etc...
    and those were the differences i felt while comparing each brand separately.

  18. #98

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    Clarinbass that is part of the subject-did you ever hear of anyone plating and NOT overhauling?The horn also was overhauled in the past by a very well known East coast person and played OK but nothing like now -this is why I believe the plating made a sonic difference.I also used the same resos as before.

  19. #99
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy
    Clarinbass that is part of the subject-did you ever hear of anyone plating and NOT overhauling?
    No, so just to make sure, you had your sax overhauled before. After it needed an overhaul again you had it done by a different repairer, and had it plated. This does nothing with eliminating other factors (both physical and spychological) so it doesn't give any reliable facts of proving the plating makes or doesn't make a difference.

    I will probably not post in this thread again (at least I will try). I will just let it turn into what it is slowly becoming. I initially wanted scientific or reliable blind testing. To quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by clarnibass
    I would like to know if it affects the sound in any way, but, I'm only interested in either scientific explanation - that is - a physical reason of how it affects the sound, or - a blindfold test with many saxophones of the same model.
    Things like "I've played a couple of saxes (even same model) with laquer and a couple with silver plating and they sounded different to me" is not interesting for me at all.
    So thanks to everyone who helped!

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    At least this long thread provides food for thought for the 1000+ people who have viewed it. I suppose what they take from it will depend mainly on whether left brain or right brain dominates.

    It is notable how some contributors don't actually understand the invalidity of their posts, as highlighted by clarnibass and others.

    Let's hope that this thread lasts a long time before it is repeated, AGAIN!
    How about when this issue starts a new thread, we just reference this one and get the administrators to close the new thread, so as to reduce clutter and save the time of all sincere contributors.

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