Sax plating difference?

[Pinnman]

In practical terms, a silver sax will fit nicely in a silver band; otherwise, it looks out of place. I don't think it goes for solo work in a small combo, either; for that I would prefer black .... but only once I have reached the "hey, look at me boys" stage which is not yet by any stretch of the imagination.

Yet silver was very popular in the twenties - although the main alternative, of course, was bare, and patinating, brass. It is all a matter of taste and money for a new sax, but condition for an old one.

[kymarto]

If you enjoy the look of a tarnished horn, or alternatively, enjoy spending a LOT of time polishing inaccessible places, then choose silver plating.

Semi-tarnished keys on a bass clarinet, with a black wood background, doesn't look too bad, but on a sax with a tarnished silver background... Hmmm - not what I would go for.

Really, good gold plating is the way to go, at least until it starts to wear through and you get electrolytic pitting...

Perhaps the best solution would be a solid gold or platinum horn with matching keywork ;-)

Toby

[Grumps]

Whether they were or not, they had those two words:

silver
sonic

Yeah, but once production quality goes down the crapper, you'd have to figure the resonance of silver would have to follow. Or the so called, alleged, imagined, perceived, implied... resonance of silver. I do dig silver horns though; after switching over to basically all silver plated horns over the last few years. Lacquer to me, is just cheap paint. I like the look of silver and don't find it too terribly hard to maintain. At least you can maintain it. Lacquer just flakes away.

[kymarto]

Yeah, but once production quality goes down the crapper, you'd have to figure the resonance of silver would have to follow. Or the so called, alleged, imagined, perceived, implied... resonance of silver.

Why, you think silver stops "resonating" if the horn isn't built as well?

I do agree about silver plating, however. I prefer it to lacquer any day.

Toby

[Gordon (NZ)]

.... Lacquer to me, is just cheap paint. I like the look of silver and don't find it too terribly hard to maintain. At least you can maintain it. Lacquer just flakes away.

I don't think you are giving modern lacquer a fair go.

There are epoxy lacquered wooden floors that stand a huge amount of gritty-shoed foot traffic before needing attention.

If those floors were silver plated, I don't think they would last anywhere near as long.

Furthermore, baked epoxy lacquer is far more robust than the unbaked stuff they put on floors.

You may have had some unfortunate experiences with lacquer, particularly old lacquer, but I don't think it is fair that you should tar all lacquer as non-durable.

The lacquer on student Yamahas is incredibly durable.

[Grumps]

If those floors were silver plated, I don't think they would last anywhere near as long.

Now I may be rough on my horns, but I ain't gonna step on 'em...

Why, you think silver stops "resonating" if the horn isn't built as well?

You mean all isn't relative?

[Gordon (NZ)]

Now I may be rough on my horns, but I ain't gonna step on 'em...

If that comment is meant in humour, then there are insufficient indicators to remove any ambiguity, so I'll assume you are serious..

You seem to miss the point entirely. Have you not considered that where plating or lacquer wears through, it is because of the abrasive action of skin on the surface, that abrasion often contributed to by the presence of minute abrasive particles embedded in the skin.

No different from what happens on the floor.

[Grumps]

No, I get it now... you're saying the student models have better lacquer, but the better the lacquer, the crappier the sound. Perfectly clear.

[Gordon (NZ)]

More sarcasm?

EVEN student instruments can have very robust lacquer nowadays.
Really, when you are talking about non-robust lacquer, you are talking about nitrocellulose (or even shellac-based) lacquer, which is rather obsolete for most manufactures of any grade of instrument, with possible exceptions.

[Doctormyeyes]

Guitar players pay a premium for nitrocellulose lacquer. After all, it ages better and sounds superior. :-)

[Grumps]

Well, by George, sounding superior is what this thread is all about, now isn't it?

[SAXISMYAXE]

Gordon, Grumps;
I love ya both, so please tell me you two aren't going to throw down over this! I'd be caught between a rock and a hard place trying to mediate between two of my favorite members.

[Dr G]

Guitar players pay a premium for nitrocellulose lacquer. After all, it ages better and sounds superior. :-)

And we all know that guitars and saxophones work exactly the same way. What is good for one MUST be great for the other. How long does it take brass to have the same measurable change in modulus that occurs in wood? How long does it take brass to dry out? There is so much more I could learn from this conversations. Absolutely stimulating.

Next...

[tbone]

How long does it take brass to dry out? There is so much more I could learn from this conversations. Absolutely stimulating.

Next...

That depends on whether you use the fast drying or slow drying brass! It comes in more than one type ya know! LOL

[saxboy]

I read these threads on occasion and often wonder if this is a universal thought. Can any of these really smart people play at all? In my world, the most pragmatic and opinionated seem to suck.

Online, opinions are all that seem to matter.

If I play a silver, gold and lacquer sax and find the gold darker - then if I was looking for a darker sound, I will like it, want it and figure the plate had something to do with the difference since it did sound different to me.

Just because the squeaky wheel seems to shout NO NO NO, does not make that view more logical or correct, just louder. MANY disagree with the NO NO NO people here. We just don't seem to have the time to argue a different opinion everyday. I think some of you just sit waiting for the next person to 'educate' or pounce.

Many think I'm nuts. I play the sax and think differently. Materials can and do make a difference. ...and it does not really matter since a good sax player can play plastic and sound great.

Just looking for some balance here and looking thru past threads with this one, want to make sure that loud does not get confused with fact; it's just a louder opinion.

SAXBOY

[Grumps]

I think it would be safe to assume that no one here can really play. So even given that assumption, now respond to their arguments. And telling them they're wrong because they stink would be an ad hominem fallacy.

[tbone]

If I play a silver, gold and lacquer sax and find the gold darker - then if I was looking for a darker sound, I will like it, want it and figure the plate had something to do with the difference since it did sound different to me.

SAXBOY

Let's say, for argument's sake, that the gold plated sax you played did sound darker. Do you believe that every gold plated sax has to sound dark? Some saxes sound dark while others sound bright. That's just the mystery of the instrument. Mouthpiece design and the individual player also affect the sound.
If you feel that four to seven microns of plating on the outside of your sax is the prime factor to your sax's sound then have a ball! Who are we to ruin your delusion?

Here's a question I posted to the Keilwerth Co.

Gentlemen;
On your website you make a couple of claims about finish and tone.
> Gold-lacquer creates a bright and centered sound
> Nickel-plate gives a dark and rich sound
I would like to inquire as to the scientific evidence that supports this? All of the scientific testings that I have read
to date do not support these claims. The db level of the air column emanating from inside a saxophone far exceeds
the db level of the sound produced by a saxophone body's sympathetic vibrations to the vibrating air column.
The tests I have read support the theories that the sound of the body is simply drowned out by the air column's sound
thus leaving the body tube's sound inaudible. If you have evidence to the contrary please let me know where I can
acquire a copy of it or is this just another case of marketing hype and urban myth?

Thank you

Here's a reply from a Keilwerth rep on their website's finish claims.

Good afternoon,

This description is not based on technical studies but only on the comments of musicians. We are not aware of any technical evidence to proof it, technically your statement is absolutely correct. Nevertheless, musicians have the "feeling" that different finishes create different sound characteristics.

Kind regards,

Gaby Kerrmann

Schreiber & Keilwerth Musikinstrumente GmbH
Marketing Assistant
Industriestr. 17
64569 Nauheim
Germany

Even a manufacturer can not support their claims of a finish's effect on tone. It's always the same old anecdotal rhetoric. "I believe so therefore it must be the truth!"

[saxboy]

I think the issue is presentation and not really topic for me.

As I look over this topic rehashed time and time again, I see Newbies walking into a torrent of debate and it seems to me like they end up feeling stupid for asking. Just look at the warnings that quickly follow this question about 'getting them started again.'

Don't know if any of you have kids but I do. I expect more from my kids than I do of there friends because I know them and know what they are made of. I also expect more from my oldest since he is 10 years older than his sister and 8 years older than his brother on his moms side. He is older and knows better. Proof is the fact that I never have to have this conversation with him anymore.

I think Newbies should feel free to ask anything and the million posters and admin's should be expected to answer with there opinions, seasoned with some grace. It is upsetting to see someone get shut down by a regular on auto pilot, almost pissed that they have to answer this question again. Many times that is the end of the posting for these young members and another opportunity is lost to help and shape a young or new sax player. How cool is a forum that makes you feel stupid just for asking?

I don't think that is anyone's ideal, all parties included.

Can we try - TRY to answer people with our opinions, first knowing that they are our opinions, then realizing that others don't know 4 years of conclusive argument has occurred. I would not be sarcastic to a Newbie but find it hard not to be to longtime members that forget these 2 basic statements.

I have answered these issues trying to be very fair and looking at the person asking. I have also answered the opponents with more of an attitude for arguments sake. I have never and will never answer in a way to shut down an honest question by a real person.

As per the TOPIC - My experience shows that in hundreds of saxes tested over the past 25 years of playing professionally, Different finishes have different sounds from a small degree to a large degree depending on the instrument, finish and test conditions. I know many disagree with this conclusion but it has been my experience, always noted by others in attendance.


As you can see, it is also possible to have a different experience, communicate it, and be fair to the whole board.

SAXBOY

[tbone]

Saxboy

Many years ago I had the good fortune to be able to test and listen to others test a bunch of Mk VI tenors all in lacquer. They all sounded uniquely different from each other. From bright to dark. If finish were the major contributor to tone wouldn't they all sound the same with the same player and MP? We even tried them with one MP and one neck and they still were different. The db level of the air column is much higher than the db level of the vibrating metal. Science has proven this to be true. It's like firing a cap gun and a cannon at the exact same time. How much do you really think the cap gun effected the overall sound? Why a horn sounds like it sounds in a mystery onto itself. There is no one dominating factor. To think that a few microns of finish is the main culprit in the equation is whacked. IMHO I don't doubt your experiences but I believe there is a flaw in your logic. But that's just my opinion.

As far as old timers being flippant, I think that has to do with the whole "here we go again" scenario.

I do agree that we should try to be more tollerant. That said, Use the Search Button!

[SAXISMYAXE]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, however criticizing active discussion on a Board that supports open discussion as it's reason for being seems logically impaired.
As Tbone suggested, a question asked ad nausem (such as this one, no offense) is likely to begin to receive rather hackneyed responses that make for less than scintillating reading. As boring as these can be, I don't see anything approaching hyperbole taking place here.