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George Garzone / triadic chromatic approach

28K views 20 replies 19 participants last post by  JL 
#1 ·
Listening to George Garzone, I wonder whether he has published any method books about his approach? Has someone from the forum studied with him and could share his or her first hand experience with him?
 
#2 · (Edited)
I've studied with him privately & at the New School for 4 years in the past, so I think I qualify. ;)

He told me that the triadic chromatic approach is something he came up with just for the sake of teaching chromatic approach to the improvisation. It's not really what he plays. He is not an intellectual type of player/person and he would be the last person on earth to write a music theory treatise. ;) He is a natural genius type. He did often refer to the late-period Coltrane recordings, such as Transitions, but I don't think he ever transcribed or analyzed them. If anything, his primary influence is Stan Getz which you can hear in his wonderful sound.

His exercise for the students consisted of slowly playing random arpeggios of triads separated by half steps (i.e. GDB-BbGbEb-EGC-DbAF-etc.), gradually adding more half steps between the triads (i.e. GDB-BbAAb-AEC#-DEbEF-F#BD#etc.) until there are so many chromatic notes in between that the triads disappear. You are then free to play all intervals as you wish. Triads are only crutches. Having listened and played so much tonal music, he does utilizes tonal scales and triads, but he doesn't approach the music with any kind of systematic ways. It's all intuitive for him.

I would recommend that you listen to his recordings as well as other chromatic styles of improvisers like Wayne Shorter with Miles Quintet, Dave Liebman, Richie Beirach as well as 20th century composers like Schoenberg, Berg, Webern and Boulez, to name a few, and really saturate your ears to the chromaticism. Dave Liebman's chromatic approach book is really helpful as well. You will eventually find sounds and shapes that appeal to you and you can develop your style from there. Chromatic style is very personal and open.

Oh yeah, maybe you can study with him too, if you are ever in Boston/NYC area. He's really great to be with. God, I miss him so much!!
 
#14 ·
REALLY summed it up nicely Destonius, thank you. I studied with George a few years at Berklee and did his avant-garde ensemble as well - what an amazing amazing guy and spirit. I miss him and the whole scene around him a lot - what a treat it was going to see the Fringe on thursday nights

I've studied with him privately & at the New School for 4 years in the past, so I think I qualify. ;)

He told me that the triadic chromatic approach is something he came up with just for the sake of teaching chromatic approach to the improvisation. It's not really what he plays. He is not an intellectual type of player/person and he would be the last person on earth to write a music theory treatise. ;) He is a natural genius type. He did often refer to the late-period Coltrane recordings, such as Transitions, but I don't think he ever transcribed or analyzed them. If anything, his primary influence is Stan Getz which you can hear in his wonderful sound.

His exercise for the students consisted of slowly playing random arpeggios of triads separated by half steps (i.e. GDB-BbGbEb-EGC-DbAF-etc.), gradually adding more half steps between the triads (i.e. GDB-BbAAb-AEC#-DEbEF-F#BD#etc.) until there are so many chromatic notes in between that the triads disappear. You are then free to play all intervals as you wish. Triads are only crutches. Having listened and played so much tonal music, he does utilizes tonal scales and triads, but he doesn't approach the music with any kind of systematic ways. It's all intuitive for him.

I would recommend that you listen to his recordings as well as other chromatic styles of improvisers like Wayne Shorter with Miles Quintet, Dave Liebman, Richie Beirach as well as 20th century composers like Schoenberg, Berg, Webern and Boulez, to name a few, and really saturate your ears to the chromaticism. Dave Liebman's chromatic approach book is really helpful as well. You will eventually find sounds and shapes that appeal to you and you can develop your style from there. Chromatic style is very personal and open.

Oh yeah, maybe you can study with him too, if you are ever in Boston/NYC area. He's really great to be with. God, I miss him so much!!
 
#5 ·
re: garzone's concept

The randomness of this approach concerns me a little.

I like the thinking but.....

I would be interested in purchasing it but need more to go on than I can find on the net before I spend $100.00 on this.

why not dim triads up chromatically to see if/when /how they resolve or many other possibilities.

The line about it being able to resolve 'most' of the time is also disconcerting.

If you play enough chromaticism there will be a link or you can make a link between any chord (s) and attach a concept to it.

Russells concept seems, a bit more grounded.

it may use renamed scales but the book organized things nicely although it is unnecessarilly over academically written!

Any other thoughts on these two?

Jim
 
#7 ·
i think all you have to do is play some lines using George's concept and you will hear the beauty of it. Modern music is largely about introducing dissonance to the music. There has been many different systems created to logically introduce dissonance. The triadic chromatic approach is another one. Lines created using chromatically connected triads are very beautiful in a modern conception. They create a random effect, yet are not only full of dissonance but also resolution. If you are interested in some etudes that explore these types of lines David Valdez has put some up on his web site: http://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/ or if you e-mail me (masciocapouya@yahoo.it) i will send you some pdf files. Also check out sotw member Matt Otto,http://ottojazz.wordpress.com he uses these types of lines very effectively

i emphasize, these are not commercial sounding melodic structures, so you can't expect this will appeal to the mass, but i personally find this type of music very beautiful.
 
#9 ·
There is an article in the current or a recent Downbeat magazine on the Garzone system, with a brief explanation and with examples. I'd like to try it but it looks to me to be very difficult ..... I can't really imagine playing successive triads a half step apart. I would like to hear others' experiences with the system, perhaps accompanied by sound clips.
 
#10 ·
My teacher does this. He tells me I should learn to do this and say, "Yea, eventually. I have enough trouble just using chord tones as target notes.

BTW, I'm having fun using the diminished scales, which I've just learned, in my solos, and I noticed that the G dim, scale contains the G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7 chords. So I'm fooling around with playing these arpeggios against Dm7, G7. Nice polytonal sounds.
 
#11 ·
Actually lutemann, A diminished scale can be subbed for a dominant chord 1/2 step BELOW that tonic (so Gº is a sub for F#7). This is because the Gº implies a F#7b9....specifically, the Gº chord tones are the same as a rootless F#7b9. Also, there are only 3 different diminished scales, and one scale is simply an inversion of 3 others, you'll see the pattern:
1. Gº = Bbº = Dbº = Eº subs for: F#7-A7-C7-Eb7
2. G#º = Bº = Dº = Fº subs for: G7-Bb7-Db7-E7
3. Aº = Cº = Ebº = Gbº subs for: G#7-B7-D7-F7

There is a similar "substitution" for Altered dominants. A G melodic minor scale can be played over an F#7alt. Actually, the G melodic minor contains all the tones of an F#7alt. chords so its not a true substitution, just a shorthand way to think of it on the fly. I myself am also getting deep into diminished and the diminished substitution will also work for an altered dominant.
 
#12 ·
This is helpful, I am starting to get this finally. Been working with diminished for a few months and was first having trouble knowing wether to start 1/2 whole or whole 1/2. Your chart is correct and simplifies .

example ....G7 start scale on the 7th, b9, 3. 5 and go whole step 1/2 step. (G# dim scale)
 
#16 ·
What I'm trying to understand is where he fits this approach in over chord changes. From my understanding he more uses it as a device to go from one place to another as opposed to a harmonic device for playing over changes. Sort of non-changes playing. Borrowing from the 12 tone row allowing only one or two notes to give the feeling of fitting over whatever chord might be playing at the time.
 
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