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Stories about the HEAVY teachers

62K views 164 replies 78 participants last post by  jaker 
#1 ·
All this talk about equipment is getting ridiculous. Players are getting buried in chambers, baffles, reeds and elusive gear. What about serious ears and study? Tell the new guys where it's at!

Have any of you had long term or short term experience studying with guys like Joe Viola, Buddy Collette, Bill Green, Joe Henderson, George Garzone, Jerry Bergonzi, Dick Oattes, Bunky Green, Joe Lovano etc.

A lot of younger players (and older ones too) would likely benefit from hearing a story, teaching practice, or situation that you guys benefited from. Something that really impacted how you approach the horn or life.

Did they help break a bad habit on the horn for you and what made the light turn on?

Years later? Humour? Harsh words? Demonstrations of the seemingly impossible? What made the experience with these guys influential?

I know Tim Price puts a ton of stories and experiences on this forum that are truly helpful. Who else carries these experiences?!
 
#53 ·
I don't know if this guy qualifies as a heavy or not, but this person was very important in my musical development. At the start of my sophomore year of high school, we got a new band director - Rick Coulter. He did not give me sax lessons, but he sure did give me music lessons.

During my freshman year, we thought our high school jazz band was pretty good, but we lost about half our talent to senior graduations at the end of that year. I was worried how we could be a decent band the next year. Fortunately, Rick Coulter became our new high school band director at the start of my sophomore year. He taught me and the rest of the band what ensemble playing was truly about. By the end of my sophomore year, we were a much better band, even though we now only had half the talent as compared to the previous year.

This was a real eye-opener for me, and it taught me that almost any band can get develop significantly better ensemble playing if given the right leadership, both at the band level and the section level. I can't imagine playing music today without the concepts he taught to our high school band.
 
#54 ·
Just a quick story about studying with Joe Viola. I was at Berklee, it was near the end of the fall semester. Joe was on the phone when I came in for my lesson. He is talking for about half the lesson. As his conversation nears the end he says, "Tell Mr. Selmer, Merry Christmas for me."
At that moment I felt very close to the center of the saxophone universe.
 
#55 ·
I'm a pretty heavy guy (in weight, that is), but I doubt that'll help anyone learn the sax from me.

The best teacher I know is Greg Riley, the sax prof at WCU. He'll get you sorted pretty quickly if you are willing to work as hard as he demands.
 
#57 ·
I studied with Joe Viola for two years. He was one of the best for sound, technique and classical playing. For jazz sound he asked me what player I admired most and as I played Alto at that time I said Phil Woods. He said that was one of the good jazz sounds to shoot for on alto. I think he was like Joe Allard, who my roomate at the time studied with, in that everything was to be relaxed, throat, embouchure, like a soft air tube. One of the excercises we did was to take the top teeth off the mouthpiece and just blow, honk long tones from the diaphram, starting low and slowing working up to higher notes. I still do this sometimes. Of course he would watch and position things while you were doing this. He also got you to do things to help yourself, if you were having problems with something, and I don't even know how he did that. There is alot of other stuff but I remember that he really changed my sound and embouchure then technique.
He was a great teacher and I don't think I could play, as I was terrible, if I had not studied with him before studying with some jazz heavies. He was also an incredible musician and could play anything in front of him!
 
#58 ·
It sounds like he wanted to make it as easy possible for you to produce a great sound so that you were over the physical hurdle. After that - everything else to do with getting ideas out of the horn would be easier.

Do you remember how he approached breathing and putting air through the horn other than the exercise you described? Did he talk a lot about playing concepts or did he make you do a series of things physically rather than explain them?

These stories are great! If you've got the time please keep them coming!
 
#63 ·
Hi, Tom,

I'm a band director in West Texas. This is my 2nd year for beginning band. I have some questions about this post:

When you said your name, was it around the mouthpiece?
When you played the subsiquent note, was it with all the tension you had produced, with a gradual relaxing?

I'd also like to see the second activity you mentioned.

Thank you,
Donna
 
#64 ·
I took a couple of lessons from a guy named John Tank (www.johntank.com ). He showed me a few "pattern type exercises" similar to the Coker patterns. However, his greatest lesson for me was demonstrating his tone. The whole horn would ring with his sound and no matter what he played it sounded like it was exactly what a great sax should sound like! He explained that he was told at Berklee in the 60's that the sound was the number one issue. I worked on long tones for a couple of months and finally made a breakthrough that changed my sound forever. John had played with Mingus and was in a quartet with Joe Morello in NYC when I got my last lesson from him. He is Canadian and moved to NYC in '74. He was visiting his folks in Canada when I was fortunate enough to see him. He went to Berklee with Jerry Bergonzi and gigs regularly in the Big Apple.
 
#66 ·
I was blessed to study with Joe Viola for two years. He was a beautiful giving man and mentor that was so kind and considerate in his manner that you couldn't help but get better.

When I first went to him, he changed my whole deal. Man, that sucked. I doubted myself, thought I was never going to get my sound back and had all kinds of issues.

I whined like a child to him about the "new" way of playing and he calmly said, Ok, go back to your way.... you'll only get so far....LOL

Well, needless to say, I got over my anxiety very fast with the thought of losing my slot with Joe. It was hard enough getting in with him in the first place.... at the time, he was only teaching part time, so slots were limited, he needed his golf time!

I finally got the concept with my slow self, and I will never forget the kind words he said about my tone on my final audition. He kept going on and on and said my tone was "bel canto". It was the best complement of all. And I just kept thanking him for his patience with me.

He was a great man, and a wise one. I still hear his voice in my ear to this day when I play.

Regards, Ken
 
#67 ·
I was blessed to study with Joe Viola for two years. He was a beautiful giving man and mentor that was so kind and considerate in his manner that you couldn't help but get better.

When I first went to him, he changed my whole deal. Man, that sucked. I doubted myself, thought I was never going to get my sound back and had all kinds of issues.

I whined like a child to him about the "new" way of playing and he calmly said, Ok, go back to your way.... you'll only get so far....LOL

Well, needless to say, I got over my anxiety very fast with the thought of losing my slot with Joe. It was hard enough getting in with him in the first place.... at the time, he was only teaching part time, so slots were limited, he needed his golf time!

I finally got the concept with my slow self, and I will never forget the kind words he said about my tone on my final audition. He kept going on and on and said my tone was "bel canto". It was the best complement of all. And I just kept thanking him for his patience with me.

He was a great man, and a wise one. I still hear his voice in my ear to this day when I play.

Regards, Ken
Thanks to everyone who reads this thread and keep it alive! Thanks for this story. It's great to hear about experiences with Joe Viola.

How had you been playing the horn before and what did Joe do to convince you that there was a different way to play? What was it that convinced you to make the change that was beyond losing your lesson time?

Keep these post coming! Finding a great teacher is truly a rare find.
 
#68 · (Edited)
Lessons with Joe Viola forward to...

Lessons with Joe Viola...

How did he explain to you how to play the horn? Breathing, blowing, oral cavity, articulation, phrasing, time feel... life's greatest mysteries!

Your experiences and knowledge.. the
lights on" moments!!!!

Thanks in advance to all that post their experiences!!!
 
#69 ·
No great stories to tell...but I studied with Jimmy Mosher for two years while I was at Berklee. I also studied with Joe Viola, George Garzone, Andy McGee, and John LaPorta...but Jimmy was my main alto teacher for the entire time I was there.

Jimmy could be a little rough around the edges at times, but he was a great teacher and I really enjoyed learning from him. I especially enjoyed it when he would pull out his own alto and we would play Bop duets and stuff like that together. I also really enjoyed the stories he used to tell about Charlie Parker. (Jimmy's father and Parker were friends, so Parker would occasionally crash at their house when Jimmy was younger. There was a great story about a Thanksgiving turkey...probably highly embellished by Jimmy...but it was fun to hear him tell the stories).

The real heavy was my high school band director though...a man by the name of Jack Pindell. He's not heavy as in "famous"...but he's the one who inspired me more than anyone else ever has. He prepared me not only for music...but for life. He was more like a second father to me than a teacher. It's been 35 years...but I still visit him several times a year. One of the best trombone players I've ever heard...and he still performs regularly.
 
#70 ·
I live in Milwaukee and I got my first great teacher when I was a junior in high school. I thought I was a good player but this man had me play a short piece and then he explained what I was doing wrong and how to do it right. He showed me the basics, but covering everything. That first lesson was the best I ever had. It still comes down to the basics and doing things correctly. If you do that, and practice with intelligence and patience you will learn to play with a great tone, play in tune, and play effortlessly...sing through your instrument.

Great musicians can pick up the cheapest instrument and still sound great. I still learn something new every day and I have been playing 52 years. Relaxation is important...mentally and physically. As a contractor the most important job I had after chosing the right musicians for a show was to get them relaxed before the show and at intermission. They knew I expected the orchestra to be great, but there is so much tension before a show, especially the first time. Getting them relaxed let the music flow. Sometimes it just took a smile and seeing me relaxed and happy.

Everyone needs at least one great teacher in their life. It always seems to come down to the basics with them. There are no shortcuts.

Wisco
 
#72 ·
I had 2 very short and interesting lessons with Sal Nistico when he was in Europe.

1. I had been working on speeding up my RH, B to C and C to B, move, and had pretty much decided that it would forever be slow and awkward, and that I souldn't worry about it. I went to see Sal in a club that night, and got in the middle of the second row, where I could see well. The band played a few tunes, and towards the end of the first set, Sal is playing a monster Sal solo, when he stops, tilts his head like he is listening to something, and then laughs. Then he looked right at me, pointed his bell at me, and or about 15 seconds, played the RH, B to C to B to C stuff, I had been struggling with earlier, only faster than I could play with the side C key. Then he laughed some more, and went back to his solo.

2. A friend of mine called up and told me to hurry over to his place, that Sal was practicing in his kitchen. So I rush over there, and sure enough, Sal is in the kitchen, burning through some Bach solo Cello stuff that had been transcribed for flute. My friend introduced me, and Sal was very friendly. "Hey, your a tenor player! Here, try my horn." he said, handing me his saxophone. So, I'm psyched to play some of my best licks on Sal's horn, only, the reed was so stiff, I could not get a single note out of it. He just laughed and took the horn back, saying, "I know. It's my practice reed. It's a little bit weak." and went on with the Bach, with that incredible sound of his on that tree stump of a reed.
 
#74 ·
Bet Wilson - "Do your long tones, baby", "play the whole horn", and "what Miles can say with 3 notes I like to say with 267"

Jerome Grey - "I'm the momma bird and you're the baby bird, now I'm gonna teach you the momma bird song." "It's DA-hit: one DA-hit: two - it ain't a bac-beat nothin'. It's the part of the beat tht preceedes the beat." (Describing Swing). "From now on if you can't sing it first you can't play it in my lessons."

Charlie Bonacos - "Let me tell you something Dizzy might say about that solo - that's mighty white of ya." - Then he started to explain the principals of obscuring the bar line, or, one. Also, his approach tones method will really get you understanding the concept behind the comment "there are no wrong notes in jazz; just bad resolutions." And, it get's you uderstanding how the master's THINK about music, not just trying to sound like them.

Frank Tiberi - Here is a GREAT teacher who just seems to get overlooked at Berklee in the shadow of other greats like Billy Pierce and George Garzone. His whole method of using "springboard approaches" is really amazing and can amp up your personal vocabulary like you wouldn't believe, also, after a few weeks with him you will be playing fourth stacks like they're going out of style.

George Garzone - great cat and funny as all get out. His chromatic triadic concept will relly get you thinking about where you're at and all the places you could go.
 
#76 ·
Reviving my old thread. I don't post very often.

I've been noticing on this site that there has been a conflict with the classical vs. jazz concept of how to play the horn and that equipment somehow puts you in a style of music. I wonder if anyone has checked out the Joseph Allard site that was put up by his former students?

Allard's concepts have been applied by students of the classical, jazz and the commercial world which makes me draw the conclusion that the way you play the horn is more important than what you play on the horn. What I mean is, how you physically move air into and out of your body, and what you do with your mouth, teeth and oral cavity to shape or produce a sound, is more important than what you play on or the genre you play in.

I hoped that former students might post their varied experiences with Joe Allard. What he taught, or a defining moment that made a concept 'click' with them.
 
#77 ·
I'll take a minute before I go to rehearsal to chime in on this because I think it's vital to the future of the art. I currently start 5th graders on woodwinds and my beginning experiences are always in my mind.

A little corny history:
My first instrument was alto sax and my school teacher was a cat in DC named Bob Silberstein, who was the hottest theater doubler at Fords Theater in the 60s. This was one of his day gigs, but he really changed my life.

When I needed some private lessons a college kid in my neighborhood who went to Berklee was invaluable, his name is Skip Gales and he still plays his a** off in Virgina Beach.

When I started flute in 8th grade, I took lessons from a HS girl who lived down the block, she was beautiful. Her name is Joanne Voorhees (JoJo) and she's the principal flute in Cleveland today.

When I learned clarinet Howard Klug was in the Air Force Band and getting a flute masters at MD. He's the head of the department at Indiana.

My main alto teacher was Dale Underwood when he was in the Navy. He suggested that I go to Manhattan and study with Allard. Dale was a Sinta student in HS, but he thought Joe was for me because I was also taking lessons with Tim Eyerman from the Airman of Note.

I saw Phil Woods a couple of times before going to Manhattan and studying with Joe. I asked him if I should apply to Manhattan, Julliard or NE (he taught at all three) and he said MSM was right for me. This was all before jazz majors. At Manhattan, besides Joe I had big band with Rusty Dedrick (a Claude Thornhill arranger and Gil Eveans buddy), arranging with Johnny Carisi (Israel) and sax quartets with Dave Tofani and Les Scott (who helped me imensely in later years).

The biggest lesson I learned from Joe Allard was be a human. The guy was the most powerful boddisatva I've ever encountered. I was fortunate to work for Ornette for many years and he may rival Joe in spiritual power.

From both of them I learned the greatest lesson:
It's the cat you sit next to that teaches you the most. What Joe learned from McClane was huge, what he learned sitting next Bonade was as big. Open your ears, open your mind, be aware, and you'll grow.

More details anon,

Dave in NYC
 
#78 ·
The most memorable lesson I ever had was with trumpeter Don Cherry.

It was maybe 1972 or '73, and Cherry was giving a workshop at the Creative Music Studio in Woodstock, NY. The cost was $20 ( twenty bucks I barely had) and I told a number of friends about it. A bunch of us made the workshop.

At the end of it, my friends were mad as hell, and I couldn't blame them.

Don hadn't really "taught" anything, and we were out $20.

I was so confused that I refused to have an opinion about it , and went to sleep that night in a fog.

But the next morning, I decided to write down everything I learned at Don's workshop.

It covered 7 legal pages and I still have those beautiful pages.

But he never actually said any of it. He just shed a light on it and, if you had your eyes open and were looking, there it was!
 
#81 ·
Most inpact through out my music life I had was Jerry Bergonzis lessons. I had few problems and things I wanted to be able to do on my improvisation at the time when I met Jerry. I was about to giveup on music.

I told those things at my first lesson. I do not know if it was true or not but, he said he had the same problems when he was younger.

That "Jerry Bergonzi" had the same problems I have?

That word from him saved me. You will not know how much I was encouraged by that word.

And he gave me few exercises to do for that problems with other basic stuff that I think he let all of his students do. It was really hard stuff.

Since it was the last hope for me,and I trusted him 100%, I spent many hours every day on his stuff.

And it worked. Because of the things he made me do and how he made me do, I became able to teach myself. I also became able to trust myself by going over those problems. I do not know if he was thinking that much but, it turned out to become the start of "knowing myself".

I still practice things based on what I have learned from him and the way he made me do.

He is one of the best. Whether, making music or teaching.

It seems he has all the answers.
 
#82 ·
I studied with some great players, but I never studied with anyone Heavy. I probably would not be playing now if I did. I would have to be truly inspired to work that hard, and with a truly Heavy teacher you don't get to wait for inspiration.

I know a lot of us have stories about how inspiring someone was, but at the end of the day, it's got to be craft - you have to do what you're told, when you're told, whether you give a damn or not. Most of my failure in music are failures to live up to the unforgiveness of craft.
 
#83 ·
I have a buddy that got a lesson from Brecker in his not so clean days. The lesson went like this.

Brecker: Do you know Scrapple From the Apple.

Buddy: Yes

Brecker: Do you know it in 12 keys.

Buddy: No

Brecker: lessons over 50 bucks please.
 
#85 ·
Hey, Bird is our Bach. If you can't ape him in your sleep with one hand on the horn and the other behind your back...well, then, you might just not be a very good imitator.
 
#87 ·
1987 I had flunked out of the Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music, joined the Army and was stationed at Ft. Knox in the band. Jamie was having a clinic in Louisville with Lieb. I had seen him on a concert at CCM the year before. He asked if anyone in the crowd knew the So What chord. My buddy said I should go up so I did. I played the first 8 on the piano and then got up to leave the stage. Lieb said something about me being a good piano player and I said, "I'm a tenor player." Then he said, "that's what I'm talking about!" "you should all play piano."

That was the exact moment I became a serious musician.
 
#88 ·
First off, some great posts in this long running thread.

Obviously back in the day, the dean of the great NYC based saxophone teachers was Joe Allard, but there was another fairly well known teacher who was Joe Allard's good friend- (http://www.joeallard.org/stucol/axelrod.html), and who was my main teacher for 4- 5 years beginning when I was 15 years old and that was:

Joe Napoleon

Joe had some pretty illustrious students, including at one time or another Jackie McLean, King Curtis, Kenny Davern. He was part of a musical dynasty family that included Phil Napoleon, Teddy Napoleon & Marty Napoleon.

He was a New York character like no other. See Guys & Dolls for some imitations of what I mean. He taught me a great deal about music, the saxophone, and life. He truly taught me about the essence of the master/disciple relationship, and what that means in actual practice. I could write for days to attempt to convey my sense of gratitude to him, both in music and in life, but all I wanted to do was put his name out there in this thread, as a brief remembrance.
 
#89 ·
Joe Napoleon

Joe had some pretty illustrious students, including at one time or another Jackie McLean, King Curtis, Kenny Davern. He was part of a musical dynasty family that included Phil Napoleon, Teddy Napoleon & Marty Napoleon.
I know Phil, who used to turn up on about every third record date in the 20s. There was another brother, George, who was one of the early baritone sax specialists in radio.

He was a New York character like no other. See Guys & Dolls for some imitations of what I mean.
Did he dress like a gent of substantiation, which he occasionally indulges in malapropositions of English? Was he, fa lack of a betta terminology, Runyonesque? I think I know whereabouts ya speak.

He taught me a great deal about music, the saxophone, and life. He truly taught me about the essence of the master/disciple relationship, and what that means in actual practice.
Now this interests me.

In another thread we've been talking cognitive apprenticeship, which is educationally-minded, dealing with thinking processes and independent problem solving. It mentors and models. It's rational and egalitarian, and never quite comes down to the heart. All that's up to you. It may take on issues that are weighty and difficult, but it is not Heavy.

Master apprenticeship, otoh, is not education at all, but intense training. Top-down, old-world, tradition-minded. Teaching is often unspoken, secrets are closely held, and if you don't know your place, the lessons may be harsh. It presents problems in our era of informality and individualism, but passion and love of the work are bound up in it. It is Heavy.

So how would you characterize your relationship with Joe? What did he teach you about that relationship and about using it in practice?
 
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