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Only You, Buescher Aristocrat Big-B Tenor.

30K views 37 replies 17 participants last post by  WarrenScottRobertson 
#1 ·
The reason why I choose Buescher is that all about the tone. I have been looking closely for more than half a year to figure out why Buescher is so good to be a so nice a horn that even modern professionals never forget or still give credits for it.

Here's what we in this forum describe the tone of Buescher Big-B Aristocrat: sweet, best, killer, more focused that THC, less spread that THC, dark, brilliant, powerful, complex, powerful, wonderful, smooth, Buescher tone, special and resonant.

After college with an engineering major(now 24), I have always been dreaming to be an audiophile. What I am always wondering is to buy a sennheiser hd-650 headphone and DIY a headphone amp. But after listening to some great jazz saxophonists(Stan, Coltrane, etc) as well as some pop saxophonists, I was really in the mood of learning playing a sax and inspire my family and my friends. I found that the true satisfaction come from seeing your friends and family members' smiles by playing music to them. So, I dumped my selfish idea and try to buy a real sax.

Then, as you might wonder the real problem may come up when the budget is not unlimited. I directly come into this excellent forum and find without doubt that Buescher is one of the most popular vintage saxophone brand in USA. I know there's a lot of trash on ebay which sells used horns. But you guys may not believe it, I did buy a nearly brand new, yeah, an almost brand new without a scratch, 1951 Buescher 156 Aristocrat tenor(#345426 with 156 and without elaborate Big B engraving and snap-in style pads) for $725. I am so happy to get this saxophone and treat it like a treasure. I also buy a Selmer 80 C* and 10 rico #2 reed for the whole setup.

Although I can only get goose-like tone for about first 5 month, I really enjoy that experience. I cannot compare it with other horns, but I really tried to find some infomation about the serials No. and try to figure out if there's any reason for such a tank-like Buescher to quit the role of saxophone history. Here's I want to tell you Buescher lovers what I found based on the database and tons of pictures of saxpic's and other websites:

In the following, I am gonna divide the Buescher Aristocrat models into seven major periods with model's approximate total model production during them:

LIST A(Overview):
(produced 5,000) 1.New Aristocrat.(transitional model),1932-1934,262K-267K.
(produced 24,000) 2.Aristocrat I. (Small Bell with art deco),1934-1941,267K-291K.
(produced 9,000) 3.Aristocrat II Big-B.(Later models with 156 as well as Big-B engraving), 1941-1949, 291K-330K.
(produced 20,000) 4.Aristocrat II w/o Big-B.(all engraved with 156), 1949-1955, 330K-350K.
(produced 32,000) 5.Aristocrat III (157 model with nickel keys, begindegraded in quality), 1955-1963, 350K-382K.
(produced 280,000) 6.Aristocrat IV(Selmer edition,design totally changed, absolute a student horn), 1963-1983, 400K-684K.
(produced >=6) 7.Bundy I/II(Student horn which may evolved from Buescher), 1983?-today?(Serial not listed).

LIST B(Most of the following are base on real model pictures):
1931-1932: 260,125---262,000
1932-1933: 262,000---264,025---265,523
1933-1934: 265,523---267,356
1934-1935: 267,356---269,000
1935-1936: 269,000---272,896
1936-1937: 272,896---279,300
1937-1938: 279,300---284,418
1938-1939: 284,418---288,024
1939-1940: 288,024---291,000
1940-1941: 291,000---294,128
1941-1942: 294,128---297,527
1942-1945: 297,527---303,000
1945-1948: 303,000---312,000
1948-1949: 312,000---316,000
1949-1950: 316,000---332,000
1950-1951: 332,000---337,000
1951-1952: 337,000---345426(Mine is born in OCT, 1951)---347,000
1952-1955: 347,000---350,000
1955-1960: 350,000---360,000
1960-1963: 360,000---381,000
1963-today: (Selmer)

Hopefully, everyone could benefit from this serial chart collected by myself on their choice of buying a vintage sax.

I am also thinking that, Buescher engineers really experimented a lot before the mass production period of Buescher Big-B 156 model (9000 increased to 20,000 in two decades w/o BigB in order to reduce the cost and increase the revenue simutaneously). Also, I can see they tried to standardize their products with formal code after WWII (like 156,157,as well as other true tones and THCs).

Personally, I doubt there's a reduce in brass quality between Big-B engraved and not Big-B engraved "156" models. If any one you have both, I hope you don't bother to measure their weight. I consider after 1955, Buescher are putting 400s(also super 400s) and THCs(also made pre-WWII ones) into their professional line. They may want to try new models around that time since there's already a lot of Aristocrat around(90,000 totally). Until the final buyout by Selmer of France(they also bought Conn to eliminate two of the biggest opponent in USA, how smart!!!), Selmer changed every good thing about Buescher in order to not let Buescher models to affect their professional lines. That's what I can reasonably conclude so far.

Anyway, I do knew that you guys are really good at get the classy tone out of buescher, I hope someday I can too. Hope to be your friends always.

With regards.

Peng.(learpot@yaho.com)
 
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#2 ·
Thank you for the information. Did you get your horn off of ebay? That is a nice deal.

I was looking at a Buescher bari recently on ebay, and am glad I didn't bid, since according to your chart, it would have been a Selmer student horn (Aristocrat IV). I go for the vintage horns, too, and will keep your list handy.
 
#3 ·
Thanks Peng for the information. It is really nice to read of your motivation for playing and I think it is a great way to be inspired to not just learn to play an instrument but to really make music as well.
I have a Big B bari that has a very beautiful tone and works for the little bit of baritone playing I do. I've had the same Buescher true tone soprano for over 30 years now and play it pretty much every day.
 
#4 ·
Hi peng, dont forget there was an overlap in the early big B's as they had the ribbon guards and big B engravings on the small bell from the series 1 , the same with the bigB to 156 change-over as some had the B engraved and some didn't (these B's had the 156 stamped under the serial) and it was selmer USA that bought out buescher+conn and not selmer paris (two different companies)
Dave
 
#5 ·
Dave dix said:
Hi peng, dont forget there was an overlap in the early big B's as they had the ribbon guards and big B engravings on the small bell from the series 1 , the same with the bigB to 156 change-over as some had the B engraved and some didn't (these B's had the 156 stamped under the serial) and it was selmer USA that bought out buescher+conn and not selmer paris (two different companies)
Dave
Dave:

Thank you for your correction, I will try to revise the post above to make it more accurate.
 
#6 ·
Very interesting. However, please note that Buescher made the 400 model at the same time using the same range of serial numbers, so the production of each was, in fact, smaller. Reduce this again for some residual manufacture of TT sops and even C tenors, the latter being made up to 1939 or 1940.
 
#7 ·
About two years ago I traded my Selmer Super Action 80 alto (roo pads and all) for a '49-50 vintage Big B alto (and cash!) and I haven't regretted a moment of it. I was looking to get more of a vintage sound. Last year, I bought a 5-digit Mark VI to resell and found a minty Selmer Soloist short shank mouthpiece in the case. I kept the mpc, sold the Selmer and now have THE perfect set up.

Ain't love grand!
 
#8 ·
I'd disagree with characterizing any saxophone over 382,xxx as "absolute a student horn." One of the finest playing Bueschers I've ever had was a post buyout 400 and many of the later Aristocrats play very well. They just aren't as marvelously consistent.
 
#9 ·
Peng, you have a very nice horn there, and you got it for an excellent price. Especially if it's in good playing condition. I have a 331,xxx, with script engraving, same as yours, and I can tell you these are fantastic horns with a great tone quality. That horn put my MKVI in the closet for over a year! I'm back on the VI most of the time, but would be happy with either horn. Enjoy.
 
#10 ·
LIST A(Overview):
(produced 5,000) 1.New Aristocrat.(transitional model),1932-1934,262K-267K.
(produced 24,000) 2.Aristocrat I. (Small Bell with art deco),1934-1941,267K-291K.
(produced 9,000) 3.Aristocrat II Big-B.(Later models with 156 as well as Big-B engraving), 1941-1949, 291K-330K.
(produced 20,000) 4.Aristocrat III w/o Big-B.(all engraved with 156), 1949-1955, 330K-350K.
(produced 32,000) 5.Aristocrat IV (157 model with nickel keys, begindegraded in quality), 1955-1963, 350K-382K.
(produced 280,000) 6.Aristocrat V(Selmer edition,design totally changed, absolute a student horn), 1963-1983, 400K-684K.
(produced >=6) 7.Bundy I/II(Student horn which may evolved from Buescher), 1983?-today?(Serial not listed).
Nice job, and just what I was looking for as I am thinking about getting my first Buescher, but based on what I have read here and at saxpics.com I think the later 156's are called Series III's not II's (my changes in red), unless I am mistaken.
 
#11 ·
We've learned a lot more about this since 2006 when the majority of this thread was in play, and this way of referring to these horns has been something I've been trying to change. When Buescher made cosmetic changes, minor evolutionary key work changes, or diddled with the neck, they did not change the model number. If they created a new instrument or made fundamental changes to an existing one, it came with a new model number.

So, as an example, a "series 1" model 127 TT other than minor changes to the key layout and octave mechanism (and a few other small nits such as a Front F) is fundamentally the same instrument as a "series IV" 127. A "New Aristocrat" 127, other than the engraving, bell key touches and a minor tweak to the neck is the same thing as a "series IV" TT 127. A "series 1" Aristocrat 127, other than moving the bell keys to the same side of the bell and another change to the bell key touches, is still fundamentally the same thing as a "New Aristocrat" 127.

The "series this or that" when applied to the TT's helps to understand some of the evolutionary key work changes during that very long production run, but falls apart at the "Aristocrats", which are best followed using their catalog model numbers all the way from the introduction of the Aristocrat in about 1932 until the end of Buescher-branded US-produced horns in 1980-something.

The Aristocrat tenors, beginning with the 1931 "New Aristocrat" engraved 127, saw little change from 1931 to 1945, other than moving both bell keys to the same dies of the horn. The engraving changed twice along with the bell keys and with the shape of the neck octave key and the extension of the body octave mechanism that operates it.

The first major change to this tenor occurred in 1945, with the introduction of the model 155 -- which completely changed the dimensions of the entire instrument, changing the tonal qualities of the horn, though cosmetically it still looked exactly like the model 127 that preceded it, except the bell flair was 6" in diameter rather than 5-1/2".

The next major change appears to be a mere 2-1/2 years later, with the introduction of the model 156 -- which moved back in the direction of the model 127 dimensionally, but was still quite a bit different dimensionally than either predecessor horn, and is different tonally, while still looking cosmetically nearly identical to both previous models except for the 127's smaller bell flair. This ran for 3 years with the Big B engraving, then the engraving was changed in 1950 and the same horn with different engraving continued in production until 1955.

So, the 156 was made from 1947 to 1955 and other than the engraving, a 156 is a 156, is a 156. Same identical instrument, different engraving. Buescher started stamping the model numbers on their instruments in 1949, hence the opportunity for confusion regarding the 156. Previous 156's will have no model stamp, and the only way to determine if you have a 155 or a 156 is to measure the length of the body tube. The 155 is about a 1/2 in shorter in the body tube than either the 156 or the 127, and the 127 is obvious by its 5-1/2" bell flair.

In 1955, the model 157 was introduced. This changed the bow and bell key arrangement at a minimum, though I have yet to measure one of these to determine what other changes may have taken place at that time to the rest of the horn. This horn ran until at least 1961, when Buescher appears to be gearing up for an acquisition by Selmer USA and started changing model numbers to meet what I suspect were requests by their soon-to-be parent. For example, what had been a 157 became a "400 model B-20" in 1958 and then a "400 model S-25" in 1960 (the original 400 line was now called a "Super 400".

After Selmer USA finished acquiring the rest of the ownership of the Buescher brand in 1964 (they clearly began acquiring it much earlier), the model numbers changed again to 4 numeric digits.

Anyway, that's just the path of the tenors. Altos and baris took different evolutionary paths. As an example of that, and this is where I think all of this "series x"/"Big B" stuff comes from, is that a Big B alto is always a model 140. A script 140 is the same thing as a Big B 140 until it was no longer a 140 and became a 141 in 1955. A "series 1" Aristocrat is a model 135, and is always a model 135, as is the "New Aristocrat", but with different bell keys. A TT alto is always a model 126, though it can be distinguished over the 25+ years of production by the evolutionary changes to its key work.

So, if you want a 156, buy a 156. Doesn't matter the year, unless the price is important, then you'll find the script (post 1950) horns are a little cheaper because everyone thinks it's a different horn than the Big B. Any they'd be right, except when they're not. Depends on which one.
 
#16 ·
Anyway, that's just the path of the tenors. Altos and baris took different evolutionary paths. As an example of that, and this is where I think all of this "series x"/"Big B" stuff comes from, is that a Big B alto is always a model 140. A script 140 is the same thing as a Big B 140 until it was no longer a 140 and became a 141 in 1955. A "series 1" Aristocrat is a model 135, and is always a model 135, as is the "New Aristocrat", but with different bell keys. A TT alto is always a model 126, though it can be distinguished over the 25+ years of production by the evolutionary changes to its key work.
Lots of great info in the whole post but this bit especially caught my eye. I didn't know that about the New Aristocrat vs the "series 1" Aristocrat. So they are essentially the same instrument. Kind of takes some of the mysticism out of the "New Aristocrat." I recently rescued a 135 "series 1" that was being donated to a high school. It's pretty original as far as I can tell, looks to have all snaps and nortons, but has had some braces resoldered. So which one to eventually get a silver plate restoration on? The 135 or the 140?

For my money, the 156 is the best tenor Buescher made...
I know different strokes for different folks and all but I would make one change to that statement. For my money, the 156 is the best tenor ever made.
 
#12 ·
Ok, thanks. That was a lot of info, I had to read that a few times.

I am interested in the same-side bell keys 127 Aristocrat models up to the 156 script models (not sure about the later script models which I read changed to a 400 style bell section). For cost considerations I may go for models just before and after the 'Big B' run.
 
#13 ·
The ergonomics improved with time. They didn't regress, meaning that the later horns are made, the friendlier they are to the fingers.

However, once you get to 1945 (the 155), that was about as far as they got. The later horns are essentially the same. They're quite comfortable, once you get used to them. I find myself fumbling around on Selmer-based key work, so it's really all about what you get used to. I have friends playing on Selmer Radio Improved tenors, and they are far from finger friendly, though they command higher prices.

For my money, the 156 is the best tenor Buescher made, though my Top Hat & Cane (B-11) of the same vintage has better key work. Others like the 127's tone better, but you pay for that with less ergonomic key work. If you're looking for price, avoid the Big B-engraved horns and either pick up a script 156 ('50-'55) or an Art Deco 127 (pre-1941).
 
#23 ·
Thanks JL. I really wasn't looking to buy a series 1 but the guy had it listed as a Tru-Tone with no mention of Aristocrat. It didn't see many bidders. I never had a series 1. I'm glad to hear they are great horns. Btw, I noticed it has a G# trill key. Does the series II have that too?
 
#25 ·
sigh... We really need to do away with that series 1 to x stuff....

The 127 carried the trill G# as standard equipment until at least 1943. I've seen pictures of several horns produced immediately before and during WWII that don't have them, but are still clearly 127's so it was probably optional after that, and you may even have been able to get one on the 155. I don't believe they were available at all on the 156, but as sure as I say that, someone's going to come up with a picture of one that has one. It certainly would be unusual, but then Buescher does not appear to have been adverse to adding custom features or reaching into the parts bin for bits from previous horns from time to time.
 
#31 ·
It depends a lot on where you live.
My Silver plated TTs don't tarnish much here in the mid-west.
I leave them on the stand a lot, and just wipe them clean after playing.
I do have 3m strips in their cases, but they are so old that I am not sure if they are still working...
 
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