"Schools" of playing

[prodigal]

American school- the vibrato is usually terminal....

Hee hee hee...

I dunno what you mean by that, but it's funny!

[jbtsax]

From personal experience, I can tell you that the three major schools mentioned each have significant pedagogical holes. The great part is that the aspects of playing that one school does not address, another will address them expertly. Angel

Angel, Would you be so kind as to expand upon this statement or give some examples either in this thread or in a private post. I have learned a great deal from this discussion and you have peaked my curiosity even more. Thanks.

John aka
jbtsax

[J.Max]

OK, a few things...

1) Maybe you had a reason not to include Tim McAllister into the American school, but I feel he belongs. He studied with Sinta from the time he was at Interlochen all the way through his doctoral training.

Yes, there is a reason. I forgot! Seriously, I wrote that off the top of my head and he just wasn't in the forefront of my mind at the time. Same reason I didn't put Gwzodz or Meighan on the Rascher side of things or Jean-Yves Formeau on the French side of things.


As far as the Joe Allard stuff goes, I really hesitate to say that he consitituted a saxophone school since his focus was more "all-woodwind" oriented. (In fact, I believe that he endorsed a line of clarinet mouthpieces.) There are many good players that studied with him, and I don't mean to slight him or them in any way, but they vary a lot in approach and so you can't really put them together into a "school". Many of the people that studied with Allard also studied with someone else; I'm not aware of anyone who is a "pure" Allard player. The idea of the list was to give people an idea about what to expect in certain schools of playing; if you go study with Harvey Pittel and then go study with Paul Cohen, you're going to have very different experiences.

Part of that is because of Dr. Cohen's Rascher experience, part of it is because Allard (like Nadia Boulanger) taught his students to find their individual voice, and part of it is going to be because of teaching proficiency.

[AMASAX]

Lets just say it is the school opposite of the American school. Allard disagreed with many things Teal taught, especially the embouchure.

Please elaborate on the above...

[mkemp]

Would Sugawa fall into one of these schools or no? Or is there a Japanese School?

I haven't heard much from him besides his quartet (Trouvere Quartet). From what little I've heard of Japanese saxophone songs, they are definitely out there, maybe even requiring or making a different "school". I'm not really knowledgable in this area, just wondering.

[GAS_Wyo]

JMax,
I'm looking at your sig and wondering how the J. Keilwerth SX90R fits into that french sound thing you've got going on with the Buffets?

I'm also wondering...how would my favorite players fit into the different schools?

Sanborn?
Clarence Clemens?
Jay Beckenstein?
Michael Brecker?
(in other words, Modern and Smooth Jazzers)

[Angel]

Would Sugawa fall into one of these schools or no? Or is there a Japanese School?

For some time now, there have been many Japanese virtuosi on the saxophone, and it seems that the number just keeps growing. Sugawa and many others studied in Japan with Yuichi Omuro, but Japanese saxo lineage really only goes back one or two generations to Arata Sakuguchi, who was definitely under the French influence beginning with letters and materials sent by Mule. I'm not sure if or how many Japanese saxophonists actually studied with Mule, but quite a few (including Ken-Ichiro Muto) traveled to Paris to study with Deffayet, and if I'm not mistaken, Hiroshi Hara is a Delangle student.

I'm not saying the Japanese and the French play alike. The personalities and day-to-day influences are different as different can be (Nitrosax would definitely be more qualified to tell). However, I find their approach over there to definitely fall under the French school umbrella, and the best players in Japan are some of the best in the world.

Ironically enough, I'm listening to Masataka Hirano's new CD "Sinfonia" (works of CPE Bach), and am just marveling at all kinds of things that he's doing. Wonderful.

Angel

Angel

[A.Smith]

There is a current trend of japanese saxophonists who study with Suguwa, who then go on to study with Claude in Paris.

[Martinman]

JMax,
I'm looking at your sig and wondering how the J. Keilwerth SX90R fits into that french sound thing you've got going on with the Buffets?

I'm also wondering...how would my favorite players fit into the different schools?

Sanborn?
Clarence Clemens?
Jay Beckenstein?
Michael Brecker?
(in other words, Modern and Smooth Jazzers)

They are probably from the School of Hard Knocks, although Brecker did go to IU...

[Angel]

Brecker may have gone to IU, but he was not a midwest Franco-American type, that's for sure.

I studied with Houlik and spent some well-spent time with Pat Meighan and John Moore, but DWoz, BKauth, and others on this forum can vehemently attest to the fact that I'm not a Rascher guy (though I love Rascher guys).

Angel

[RickBusarow]

JMax,
I'm looking at your sig and wondering how the J. Keilwerth SX90R fits into that french sound thing you've got going on with the Buffets?

The type of horn you play doesn't determine your stylistic concept - not even if it's a Buescher.

Notice that his Buffet alto's also actually a Keilwerth stencil. I've got a lot of friends who play Keilwerths, and they all sound different. One of them sounds remarkably similar to Delangle with a Shadow alto and an S90 mouthpiece. Your style's all about how you approach your horn - not the other way around.

BTW, I believe Brecker was from the School of Pre-Medical Studies or something like that.

[KenK]

Ironically enough, I'm listening to Masataka Hirano's new CD "Sinfonia" (works of CPE Bach), and am just marveling at all kinds of things that he's doing. Wonderful.

Thanks for the tip! I searched for this, found it on Amazon (in Japan). It just arrived, and it's absolutely wonderful. Beautiful playing.

[nitrosax]

Come on guys...Everyone knows that the French school is REALLY the best...Just give in and accept it! You'll be much happier people.



Well..On a serious note, I second what Angel wrote about each school having something to offer. There was a time in past where I spent a considerable amount of time trying to understand and "sound" like a particular school of players. For me it started with Michigan or the American school. Then, Rascher, then Defayyet or French school, then NEW French school(Delangle).

Now I just try to sound like me but I've traits from all of these schools...I picked and chose what I liked from each...it's entirely possible to have a French sound with a American sense of line or a Rascher-like sound with a Delangle-like sense of pitch...

[RobD]

I think Rousseau should be split from the french school - everytime i've studied with a person who ascribes to the rousseau ideal its darker and rounder of a sound than when i study with someone with a french ideal who wants the brigther and crisp articulation. I think there's a noticeable different, atleast with the people i've studied with.

if anything there should be a rousseau/french-america/IU school or something. and definitely a japanese school

[mvhsleadalto]

Haha, I would definatley say I come down the French line. I currently study with Dr. Ray Smith, who studied with Rousseau. In a way, that makes me Marcel Mule's "great-grandson."

[Angel]

I think Rousseau should be split from the french school - everytime i've studied with a person who ascribes to the rousseau ideal its darker and rounder of a sound than when i study with someone with a french ideal who wants the brigther and crisp articulation. I think there's a noticeable different, atleast with the people i've studied with.

if anything there should be a rousseau/french-america/IU school or something. and definitely a japanese school

I somewhat agree. I feel that there should be a Midwest school (Rousseau/Hemke) that is totally different than old-school French (Mule/Deffayet/Londeix), new-school French (Delangle and disciples, Fourmeau, Bornkamp), and American (Teal, Sinta and disciples).

But that's just OCD me trying to label everything. At the end of the day, the heritages all kind of start running together. I might look back on this in ten years and laugh about how I thought there was much of a difference...

Angel

[Rick]

I think Delangle sounds nothing like Fourmeau or Bornkamp. Delangle is too unique and is carving out his own school.

[EZ]

Anybody know when we first began to see smaller chamber mouthpieces?

Selmer mouthpieces were large chambered like Bueschers until just before the Soloist came out with it's smaller horseshoe chamber. There are some pre-Soloists with medium round chambers like the LT - the design that Larry Teal had reincarnated later on.

To add... it would be more interesting to see a family tree of who instructed who than trying to categorize players of note by species.

Otherwise, there's always the platypus to confuse matters.

[Angel]

I think Delangle sounds nothing like Fourmeau or Bornkamp.

Of course, just like Jim Umble and Gary Louie don't sound much alike. But you can definitely tell hear where everyone came from, even without the bios in front of you. Schools aren't about how alike people are, but how alike their backgrounds are.

Delangle is....... carving out his own school.

I'm not sure about that, though. I guess we'll find out in a couple more generations. Until then, you have to go to Paris Conservatoire to study w/ Claude and Amsterdam Conservatorium to get with Bornkamp, their own "schools".

Angel

[saxsaxsax69]

I was going to say what happened to the British School, but someone beat me too it!