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Flutter tone

4K views 22 replies 10 participants last post by  littlewailer 
#1 ·
I've read every post, article, etc. on the flutter tone and I still can't figure it out. The best way I can describe my problem is that, when the mpc is in my mouth, there is no room to move my tongue up and down. Even with a non-traditional embouchure I cannot do it.
It seems that from the moment the mpc. is in my mouth, I can't move my tongue up and down, even if only the smallest amount of mpc. is actually in my mouth. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
#2 ·
Try anchoring your tongue on the gum behind the upper teeth and simply blow out letting the tongue flop in a d-d-d-d-d or dr-dr-dr-dr-dr sound. Make a motor boat or machine gun sound like you did when you were a kid. Don't say dddd, just blow and let the tongue flop in a dddddd position.
 
#3 ·
You don't have to use your tongue!! Use your throat! I know this sounds harder but I flutter rather well without the tongue technique.
Have you ever heared how the russians (and in more langueges) they pronounce the "r"? That's what you want to try to do.
Practice the r to sound like that or to sound like a flutter.
I managed to do this first while whistling so you can also practice this without the sax.
good luck!
 
#4 ·
Mime said:
You don't have to use your tongue!! Use your throat! I know this sounds harder but I flutter rather well without the tongue technique.
This must be uvular fluttertongue (Flutterthroat?), not "Fluttertongue", or are you saying it sounds identical? Normally this is a compromise but may be an ideal solution for people who have difficulty with fluttertongue.

see http://personal.zcloud.net/timzart/fluttertongue.htm

There are various problems with not being able to flutter tongue:

  1. An overbite which causes the tongue to be further forward in the mouth cavity. This can also hinder a good tonguing technique.
  2. An inability to roll your Rs. This I'm sure can be overcome with practice
  3. Now we also have not being Russian.

I find R rolling very difficult, whenever I try to do it it is much too forceful but I am gradually working towards it (I need to get better as I have a very basic flutteretongue tutorial on my site and I need to improve it so I'll definitely investigate the throat technique more)
 
#5 ·
Mime said:
You don't have to use your tongue!! Use your throat!
Mime, I believe that the throat technique (at least in English) is called a "growl" and the tongued technique is called "flutter tongue". Because of the difference in sound, many look upon these as two different techniques.
 
#6 ·
Pete Thomas said:
This must be uvular fluttertongue (Flutterthroat?), not "Fluttertongue", or are you saying it sounds identical? Normally this is a compromise but may be an ideal solution for people who have difficulty with fluttertongue.
I can't fluttertongue though can "Flutterthroat". I asked someone to fluttertongue and both sounded identical.
I actually found that while doing so I can add abit of a growl which adds some more to the sound. :)
 
#7 ·
gary said:
Mime, I believe that the throat technique (at least in English) is called a "growl" and the tongued technique is called "flutter tongue". Because of the difference in sound, many look upon these as two different techniques.
I think Mime is referring to the Uvular style of fluttertongue, which apparently can be almost identical. Growling is a totally different thing. and involves singing a note that sets up an interference with the saxophone note.
 
#8 ·
This topic comes up from time to time. It's something I've always been able to do easily, so I'll repaet myself in the hope of helping out.

Like a lot of things, it's easier to do if you don't over analyse it too much. If you think of consciously moving your tongue up and down, it's damn near impossible!
If you are familiar with rolling your R's like a good Scottsman, then that's really all there is too it.
If not, try making the noise of a Harley Davison accelerating, or similar, as mentioned above. If, unlike me, you didn't spend entire primary school classes learning to mimic every known auto engine, try the following:

1. Get a glass of beer or water or whatever.
2. Go outside and remove any clothing you don't want to get wet
3. Take a mouthful of chosen liquid and don't swallow it!
4. Tilt head back, open mouth and gargle liquid
5. Gradually speed up the "rate" of the gargle and slightly close mouth. Beer will probably run down chin. Wasteful but not entirely unpleasant.
6. Notice that as you speed up, the focal point of the gargle or vibration will feel as if it is moving "up" from way down the back of the throat, towards the front of the tongue a little.
7. Practice speeding up and slowing down.
8. Now try it without liquid.

As you speed up, the focus will tend to be closer to the tip of the tongue. As you slow down, it will tend to be farter back. With a little practice, you should be able to then mimic a car or motorcycle speeding up and slowing down.
Sounds weird but it works!
I've taught a couple of people, who swore they "just couldn't do it," using the above method. It took all of 10 minutes.
Being able to flutter tongue is great for all those Junior Walker tunes too!
 
#9 ·
I guess some folks can fluttertongue, some can growl, and some can do both. I wish I could do both. I find the fluttertongue very easy and have been able to do it ever since I first started playing sax. It's exactly like rolling your r's. On the other hand I can't seem to get the hang of the growl. I can do it for a few seconds if I really concentrate, but then my throat starts to get sore and I really can't control it anyway. Maybe someday...

In the meantime, I've worked on fine-tuning the flutter tongue. I think I can get it to sound a lot like a growl by speeding up the flutter and backing off on the air a bit. This makes it more subtle. Or I can increase the air stream and really let it rip for maximum effect. Just like any other effect, the flutter tongue can be varied to some extent.
 
#10 ·
I think the flutter-tongue technique one uses is dependant on the throat position of the player. If the back of the throat, rolling R, position is more accessable, then that player will probably prefer it. And vise versa goes for the "machine gun" flutter.
And I also think that if a person is not a good Scottsman and Can't roll there R's (like some kansans, perhaps), then they'll opt for the machine gun flutter regardless of throat position.

And note that pete thomas was correct in his comment about growling. It is a completely different technique than flutter-tonguing, and it involves literally humming and playing at the same time. It sounds similar to fluttering, but IMO it's waay cooler. ;)
 
#11 ·
gary said:
Try anchoring your tongue on the gum behind the upper teeth and simply blow out letting the tongue flop in a d-d-d-d-d or dr-dr-dr-dr-dr sound. Make a motor boat or machine gun sound like you did when you were a kid. Don't say dddd, just blow and let the tongue flop in a dddddd position.
I've tried that before and I can't do it because I don't have enough room in my mouth to move my tonuge up and down(rolling my Rs, motorbaot sound, or whatever you want to call it), that's why I posted this, to try to see if y'all could help me find a solution
 
#12 ·
Oh come on, man, what do you mean you don't have enough room in your mouth? Do you have a physical problem that is unusual?
 
#13 ·
gary said:
Oh come on, man, what do you mean you don't have enough room in your mouth? Do you have a physical problem that is unusual?
No, I don't have any unusual mouth condition.:| Let me try to explain:

I put my mouthpiece into my mouth, and I can move my tongue up and down, but I cannot do the motorboat noise. I can do the motorboat noise without the mpc. in my mouth, but once the mpc. is in my mouth, I can't "roll my R's." I have also tried the other ways of flutter tonguing , and apparently I can't do those either.
 
#15 ·
gary said:
Oh come on, man, what do you mean you don't have enough room in your mouth? Do you have a physical problem that is unusual?
Many have a physical problem that makes not only fluttertongue difficult, but also plain old tonguing - this is not so rare that I would call it an "unusual" problem. It can be cause either by an overbite or by length of tongue. When tonguing this requires the tongue to be either slightly more curved than in the conventional state for tonguing, or else drawn back a bit further. Both of these would make fluttertongue more difficult.
 
#16 ·
Very interesting. Well I just wanted to narrow down the problem. As a trumpeter I never had the fastest tongue in the world and that's with no mpc intrusion obviously, so that means to be looking for other sources of the problem.

But if David is playing alto or soprano, can he really be taking too much mpc in his mouth as opposed to other factors being the problem?
 
#17 · (Edited)
You are probably trying to use a spot near the tip of the tongue. Try to flutter with the middle of the tongue on the roof of the mouth; or even a spot futher back on the tongue. you can do that and still have the tip of the tongue under the mpc touching below the lowwer gum.

Bad advise, I was doing it without the mpc. With the mpc my tongue is pulled back and the tip is up on the roof of the mouth. Some how though I think I might have done it once with a spot further back on the tongue.
 
#18 ·
gary said:
But if David is playing alto or soprano, can he really be taking too much mpc in his mouth as opposed to other factors being the problem?
I don't play sop., and I am manily trying to flutter on tenor, although it'd be nice if I could do it on tenor, C, and alto. Anyway, even when I try to take the smallest amount of mpc. possible, I still have trouble moving my tongue up and down.
 
#19 ·
frankbiff said:
You are probably trying to use a spot near the tip of the tongue. Try to flutter with the middle of the tongue on the roof of the mouth; or even a spot futher back on the tongue. you can do that and still have the tip of the tongue under the mpc touching below the lowwer gum.
Thanks, I'll try that. As of now I am using the back of the tip of the tongue, near the middle, although I can probably do it farther back, near the throat.
 
#20 ·
I was just wondering if anyone else does this. When I am attempting to fluttertongue, I have to break the "traditional" sax embouchure(e.g. bottom lip over bottom teeth, and top lip and top teeth pressing downward on mpc.) and remove my bottom lip from my mouth, in order to get more space to move my tongue up and down, although I still have my top lip and top teeth pressing downward on the mpc.
 
#21 ·
CMelodyMan said:
I don't play sop., and I am manily trying to flutter on tenor.
David, I was going by this: "My set-up:
Alto: Yanagisawa Elimona, Selmer S90 piece(legit), Rousseau Jazz 5(jazz), Rico #2.5 reeds, RSJ 2M reeds.
C Melody: c.1919 Martin Inspiration C Tenor Sax *in repair*
...and I notice that the C Melody ain't exactly a soprano...duh!

Do you now have a tenor, too? What did you decide on and how's it working out. Oh, and how long have you been playing it? That might be a factor too, if you're not yet comfortable with the tenor mpc in and of itself.
 
#22 ·
gary said:
David, I was going by this: "My set-up:
Alto: Yanagisawa Elimona, Selmer S90 piece(legit), Rousseau Jazz 5(jazz), Rico #2.5 reeds, RSJ 2M reeds.
C Melody: c.1919 Martin Inspiration C Tenor Sax *in repair*
...and I notice that the C Melody ain't exactly a soprano...duh!{/quote} hah a, I should have known:)
{quote}
Do you now have a tenor, too? What did you decide on and how's it working out. Oh, and how long have you been playing it? That might be a factor too, if you're not yet comfortable with the tenor mpc in and of itself.
I am currently playing on my school's Selmer Signet tenor. I don't play tenor at school, although I will most likely make first chair tenor at Jazz Honor Band this year. Anyway, I have been playing for 3-4 months, although I do feel very comfortable on it, even though 3-4 months isn't very long. I have a set-up that works very well with the tone I am looking for. I don't think the mpc. is the problem, I think it is more an issue of tongue placement, perhaps? I really don't know how to describe it, although I have tried to explain my problem in my previous posts in this thread.
 
#23 ·
tongue over piece

ahh the tutter flung,
if your having trouble with the physical space in your mouth. try putting your tongue over the mouthpiece (not under like you normally would to tongue). and then roll your r's. you'll probably get a really bad noise out of it but dont worry. graddually bring your tongue to the back of your throat. this worked for me and now i can get the beats of my flutter tongue even with the beats of my growl.
 
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