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How to get that sound?

55K views 82 replies 37 participants last post by  John Laughter 
#1 ·
I've been listening to King Curtis,Sam Butera,Earl Bostic,Clarence Clemmons etc.,the great R&R/R&B guys a lot lately.So,Í've tried to get that sound myself too (on tenor) but I'm not really satisfied with the results.I'm not trying to sound exactly like Curtis etc.,just to get the basics of the 50's-60's R&R sound together.

I´ve tried couple of mouthpieces,DG King and bronze Berg 120/1 sms and bunch of reeds (plain Rico 2,2 1/2,LaVoz soft,med.soft,med.Plasticover 2 1/2 and some bari reeds,Plasticover 3,Royal 2 1/2 and Plasticover 3).
I get the best results with DG King and plain Rico 2 reeds but still the sound is quite "clean".Loose embouchure helps some but I'm not even close yet.
Any advice how to get that R&R sound? John?

Thanks!!!
 
#3 ·
Sam, excellent question. There are many fine players on this board who can give you a lot of suggestions that can, I believe, head you in the right direction.

The musicians that you have named are some of the classic performers. They all had different approaches, tones and attitudes in thier solos. Their equipment was also different, especially the m/p's.

Do me/us a favor and list a few examples of tunes that you have listened to so that we can download the selection and listen to the specific tone that you are thinking about. A few of these players did change their style slightly depending on the song they played so rather than giving you some "general" opinions, let's listen to a song or two that you really like and see what suggestions the board members can come up with to help both you and Spider. This has always been a popular subject and one that is well worth discussing. So, give us a few songs and let's see what we can do to get the conversation going. Okay?
 
#4 ·
John,thats a good idea.Here is a list of CDs and some tunes I've been listening to:

King Curtis:The Best Of:One Mint Julep
Sam Butera and the Witnesses:The Artist Collection:I love Paris
Earl Bostic:Earl Blows and Fuse:Two O'Clock Stomp

The sound quality I'm looking for is probably made either growling of flutter-tounguing but I'm not sure if these guys really growl or flutter-tongue all the time or do they just overpower the horn/mouthpiece combination to get that distorted sound I'm looking for.

I think a large tip opening mouthpiece with higher baffle (Plas Johnson plays something like Berg .160) with soft reed would help to do this,correct me if I'm wrong.
 
#6 ·
This is an interesting topic, you're right John.

It's hard to explain but I get that sound, seems on no matter what I play. It's that buzzy sound so many seem to abhor. I am usually on the soft side when it comes to reeds, never stronger than a 3, unless its a baritone reed on tenor. and for the past several years almost exclusively on Fibracells, though some Vandoren V-16's are working well too.

I played the HR Meyer 5m that I got with my horn (1961 Buffet SDA) and people said "nice R&R sound." I've played a Guy Hawkins metal, Link STM, Berg 120/0sms, Rovner, Runyon Custom , Quantum and a Vandoren Jumbo Java. Except for some subtle differences the sound is pure Bill Mecca (ha!)

I have found in performance (listening back to recordings) I sometimes growl without even realizing it. It's an easy habit to fall into.

I also listen to this music a lot, and have for years, so I think its very much a need to get that sound in your head.

I will be interested to read what others are doing to get the sound and maybe then I can decipher a bit more of my own playing.

One thing will suggest, especially for those with a "jazzier" background, the attack on the notes is different, not neccesarily staccato, but they are more detached, if that makes sense.
 
#9 ·
Frank D... ala Vandoren Jumbo Java A75? is this the type of mouthpiece you are referring to? Is this what you call "high baffle"? (Seems that's backwards, seems it should be low baffle, because the baffle hangs down off the top of the mouthpiece quite far... unless I don't know what a baffle is)
 
G
#12 ·
Unfortunately, the higher the baffle (an exercise in pretzel logic terminology itself), the less control you have over pitch.

This is the reason most of the tenor guys you've mentioned used Berg 120-130/2 instead of today's more popular (and MUCH less expressive) /1 or /0 baffles. I'm not talking intonation, I'm referring to the ability to alter the pitch outside of the dead-on tuning note at will! This type of mouthpiece is more difficult to play (especially at todays levels) but WELL worth the effort!
 
#14 ·
Sam and Spider, I have listened to all of the selections except Moonglow by Bostic. Just a few thoughts to share with you;

Curtis-One Mint Julep-he uses the growl throughout this one. Sounds like a softer reed with a reasonably wide lay/tip due to the tonguing sound. At one point in his career he was using a hard rubber Berg with a MVI.

Butera-I Love Paris-again, the growl thoughout the entire solo. He also uses an open throat/relaxed jaw with a wide vibrato at times at the end of a phrase to add flavor which was, and still is popular with many players. His use of the "double tone" is very effective. A lot of wide slurs/note bends so I will have to assume that his tip opening is fairly wide. However, Butera does push his high register, which, at times, sounds like a smaller tip opening so I can't really say for sure. He did use a Duck Bill Berg in early days.

Clemmons-Born To Run-also a lot of growl and very fast air stream. Some players may consider it "overblowing" but it is, in my opinion a fantastic rock & roll pushing tone. Bear in mind that Clarence is a very large person with large lungs so his average playing volume will be much stronger than some of us because of his size. His fast tonguing technique is effective during his solos as it creates a lot of excitement. He was using a Selmer 7 at one time and has used the Rovner "Deep V" for the past several years with a silver plated tenor.

Also, be aware that many of the modern day recordings are going to sound bigger than life due to the reverb and compression effects. In other words, if you caught Clemmons backstage in an dead (acoustic) room before the concert, you might be surprised to find that he is closer to many of us in his general sound than you realize.

Bostic-Two O'Clock Stomp-and again, the growl with a fast air stream and open throat that makes him sound like a tenor at times. Gutsy mid range. One fine alto player who must have been a sight to behold in a live setting with a floor full of dancers. I also feel that he played with a relaxed embouchure due to the full fat tone. I have no idea if he used a metal or hard rubber m/p.

So, the common sound that apparently has caught your ears in general is the use of the growl, and in the case of Butera, Bostic and Clemmons, a lot of air going real fast through the horns to help with the sound of energy. But beyond that, these musicians are also using a multitude of lip/breath/dynamics/alternate fingering and other techniques that can take a lifetime to learn and to appreciate where and when to use them.

Hopefully other members have taken a listen and can give some more ideas.
 
#15 ·
John Laughter; very, very perceptive.

Personally, the sound has to start in the head. For years I listened to King Curtis for years, and then the 80's version, or extension of the sound, Clarence.

For years I just used to growl my way through a solo, but after hearing others do the same thing, I realized that it wasn't really what I was looking for. Growls in the sound never sound relaxed, always sound forced and they sound like they're imposed on the tone. I wanted a tone, not something added to it. And I noticed that Clarence and King Curtis can have the sound even in a relaxed form of playing.

I play a Mark VI and my rig is a hard rubber Berg Larson, 100/0. Small tip opening, which took six months to get used to, and a bright sound. The reed is a 3 Legere, Canadian brand. Don't get me wrong. I've had this sound we discuss here with lots of different setups, that's why I think it starts in the head.

For me, the key to the sound is when I lean on the piece. By that I me I put the reed to an exact certain spot of closure, and work with alot of back pressure. (Maybe this is what you me by a fast air stream.) I find the push has to come from below, not the oral cavity or the throat. What happens is that the piece can't take the air as fast as it might like. What is going through is probably really moving. The hardest part is to keep the throat wide open at all times so there's a bigness to the sound. Restricting the throat will shrink the tone.

For a sweet little jazz sound, all I have to do is back off the lower lip, just a hair, and relax the gut slightly.

I really believe that the body is what produces alot of our tone, and that the rig only helps us access it.
 
#16 ·
If my take on what is being said is correct, it is the overdriven sound that you're chasing down. I have found that it is possible to achieve this sound by basically blowing the blazes out of the horn. I use a fairly big tip at around 120, a bright reed like an RJS, Plasticover on certain mpcs and think of the sound I wish to hear and then play it. I am blwoing a high speed of air down the horn, letting the sound hit the edge of cracking and go from there.

The best horn I have found for achieving this sound is a The Martin, solid silver neck with any larger tip, high baffled mpc and around a 3 to 3 1/2 reed.

It could also be spending too many years in RnB, Rock and Soul bands that has helped to develop this sound too.
 
#17 ·
John,thank you very much for your time and effort! I found your answer very informative.
From the information and listening experiences,I think I have a clearer picture in my head now how to achieve this sound.Its a combination of growl,overdriving (like Bootman states here) the sound with a relaxed embouchure using fairly bright,big tip mpc with a softer reed.And some work.Thanks to all!!!
 
#18 ·
Very nice analysis John (not that I expect anything less from you) ;-)

A few addendums to what you said about Clarence and Sam Butera.
I believe, based on a post from the old board, and from seeing him in person not that long ago, that Butera is still using the same mouthpiece (he successfully avoided falling into the gear game)

Clarence played a Berg Larsen SS (120/0) before the Rovner. I've also heard he played Dukoff for a time, but am not sure. Also, not sure if it's what he recorded the Born to Run solo with, but on the Album cover he is holding a King Super20. His current horn is a Keilwerth, black nickel I believe, and he plays Plasticovers.

In the pictures I've seen King Curtis played a 0 or 1 chamber Stainless Steel Berg. I do have a couple CDs, including Live at Montreaux with Champion Jack Dupree, where he was playing Hard rubber, and he sounds just like himself.

Greg Piccolo gets a fantastic Rock and Roll/R&B sound out of his Selmer and Link STM, there is a nice video clip of him playing Blow Joe Blow on his site. http://www.gregpiccolo.com
 
#19 ·
schwew!

Someone finally articulated what I was trying to say. Thanks guys! This is what I was asking about when I kept pestering about the growl. I couldn't see how the growl could be used so constantly. I know a master player could probably do whatever they want--and not really think too much about it--but I was really trying to figure out the "overdrive" sound. I'll try these tips out. Should keep me busy for quite a while.
 
#20 ·
Well I appreciate the kind words but more than that I am glad to finally see a web site where players are talking about rock/rock & roll/blues/R&B, etc. This entire area of "commercial" music has been on the back burner for too long with most sax message groups. We have a lot to cover and many questions to be answered. I have been having a great time with it since 1955 and it has been good to me and for me!
 
#22 ·
I agree with John that it's great to see this discussion of R&R sax. I see it as an important part of the picture. Much as I love jazz in all it's forms, if it weren't for blues & R&B I wouldn't get to play my horn in public nearly as often and I certainly wouldn't be doing many paying gigs. I wish I could play like Trane or Bird or any of the jazz greats, but I'd need another lifetime to even approach that. In the meantime, I can play R&B/blues (I seem to have an affinity for it) and I love that sound as well.

Back on topic, I can get a buzzy, gutsy sound very well with my Sugal mpc, but lately I prefer a bit darker, cleaner tone, even for R&B. I've been getting that with the Jaguar, and as many stated above, by overblowing with attitude I still get a raunchy sound when I want it. Also adding in occasional flutter tongue goes a long way.
 
#24 ·
So we really have four options then, is that correct? Epiglotal growl (more gutteral), humming/screaming harmonic growl (smoother), flutter tonguing (most disruptive or turbulent to tone), and finally Overblowing.

They all sound so different when you're the one playing it, but when you hear it on the radio or CD, it takes a moment to stop and figure out what sound it is. Perhaps the most easily recognizable is the flutter tongue.
 
#25 ·
Selmer Fudd said:
Unfortunately, the higher the baffle (an exercise in pretzel logic terminology itself), the less control you have over pitch.

This is the reason most of the tenor guys you've mentioned used Berg 120-130/2 instead of today's more popular (and MUCH less expressive) /1 or /0 baffles. I'm not talking intonation, I'm referring to the ability to alter the pitch outside of the dead-on tuning note at will! This type of mouthpiece is more difficult to play (especially at todays levels) but WELL worth the effort!
Pete, maybe I don't understand your meaning, or it just hasn't been my experience. I admit that I prefer the tone of my Berg 120/2, and will often use it for studio, but for live electric mayhem I find it limiting. For example, I can't get enough air through the 120/2 Berg to overblow the higher altissimos as well as I'd like, in fact I'll sometimes choke them off, especially altissimo B and above. I tried the /0 Berg and didn't like it at all, for tone or performance. But the DGSKRB really unleashed the altissimos, I can do more pitch "gymnastics" and multiphonics, perhaps at the expense of some tonal complexity. Now, if I could get the sound of my 120/2 Berg and the performance of the DGSKRB, I'd scarcely have a reason to eat.
 
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