Sax on the Web Forum banner

Older sax for a late bloomer

2K views 10 replies 8 participants last post by  gd500 
#1 ·
Hi, as a late starter to the sax, I was wondering. In the acoustic guitar world it id widely believed that tholder the instrument gets, the more mature the sound. This is due to, in part the cell structure of the sound board changing the mor they are played. I have recently bought a Martin Tenor dating to 1926. This thing sounds awesome. Mellow, soulful not loud or brash. I have been told that about 60% of a sax's sound comes from the mouthpiece. But could it be that saxophones mature and sweeten with age? The one I have has obviously been played a lot the sides of the pearl keys have been worn away like well worn wedding ring, would that mellow the voice.
Cheers,
Beany
 
#2 ·
1) The main thing that resonates is the air column inside the horn, not the metal walls. So the dimensions are critical, the material not so much. There have been thousands of posts on the internet about this, but few will deny that the effect of the material, if it exists at all, is minor. This is a big difference from instruments that have a soundboard (Pianos, guitars, violins, etc.)

2) Metallurgy tells us that for a metal that is not subjected to significant stress, there will not be any measurable changes in molecular structure over time. There is no way that the tube walls of a sax are subjected to the kind of stress level that would cause either yielding or fatigue, although most saxophones of some age have been dented and had dents repaired, a number of times. But that would typically be local in effect only.

3) The tone qualities you are describing are so characteristic of older saxophones as to be practically a cliche. They were designed that way. I have read an analysis that suggests that since brass instruments of the time were smaller bore and brighter in sound, the saxes were darker in sound to provide a contrast. If you listen to recordings from the 30s, when these old horns were new, you will hear the same tonal qualities, so it's not due to aging.

4) It has been suggested that modern horns (Selmer and copies thereof) have "more precise" (not the same thing as more accurate) intontation, also described as "slotted in", which implies that it's harder to play an individual note out of tune, whereas the older horns have what is described as "more flexible" intonation; it has also been suggested that a "more precise" intonation also comes with a somewhat brighter more focused sound and that the more mellow deeper sound comes with the more flexible intonation. I don't know whether the two things are causally related or just happen to coexist in this way in the two groups of instruments. For that matter, I am not sure that the "more flexible intonation" vs. "more precise intonation" thing really exists. But it's interesting folklore.
 
#4 ·
Hi, as a late starter to the sax, I was wondering. In the acoustic guitar world it id widely believed that the older the instrument gets, the more mature the sound. This is due to, in part the cell structure of the sound board changing the more they are played.
That is not a consensus view of aging regarding guitars, and certainly does not apply to saxophones. Please don't apply a ToneRite to a horn.
 
#5 ·
Well...I am not sure why the "60%, (80%, 75%, or 90%) of the tone comes from the mouthpiece" thang is still bandied about by some as da' truth....because the fact is, as I have said ad infinitum....a sax has tonal/sonic qualities built into its design. Body tube, neck, bow specs such as taber, dimension, bow radius, neck length, tonehole location, tonehole diameter, and possibly tonehole stack heights are all specs which vary from maker to maker and give certain makes their signature sound. Slap whatever piece of plastic or rubber or metal or wood you wanna at the end of the piece of hardware, the hardware still will have the designed-in sonic qualities of the hardware.
With that said, certainly a mouthpiece setup can lean a horn one way or another, sonically.

OK, end of soapbox.

+1 to Turf's answer above. The 'aging' of metal in a wind instrument imparting a sonic flavor to the tone ? I would say no. In the case of cymbals, most certainly it can be said that older bronze 'calms down' with time, and the sound of a cymbal will 'settle'. Something most percussionists believe, in some version of the semantics. However, this may not be due to the fact that the metal is 25 or 75 years old so much as due to the fact that patina usually develops. The alloy composition definitely has an effect on tone, because again, you don't blow thru a cymbal...you strike a cymbal with a stick.

Not so much a sax (although there are some boutique brands out there which would tempt me). So the cymbal is spending its life being struck and then vibrating. Not so much a sax (although again, ditto the comment above - there are some which I wouldn't mind crashing every day).

When you speak of strings, you get into Resonance, and the fact that (of course) the plucking or bowing or strumming actually makes the wood body resonate. Does Resonance play a huge part of a saxophone's sound, however ? Most would argue not (although today many marketing depts use this herring). Also, wood is wood. Metal is metal. Different stuff.

An interesting experiment, for someone with oodles of ca$h lying around...would be to break down the specs of an old model, say a Martin (this is NOT hard to do as machinists and industrial designers have such equipment that can scan and plot dimensions and specs of an object)....then literally build one from scratch (which becomes much more challenging).

I would not even be so concerned if the alloy composition of the contemporary brass did not match that of the original. But body gauge, weight of keys, construction of toneholes, etc...yes, would need to match.

MY educated guess would be, if an exact duplicate was constructed....it'd sound (and respond) just like the original. Age of brass, alloy composition, finish (lacq, plate, bare) would be negligible variables.

My thoughts.
 
#7 ·
I have been experimenting with the tonal quality of a saxophone changing as it ages. As JayePDX points out, cymbals are known to do this. It might be patina, or it might be something else. We here at FlemTone have been whacking a sax with a drum stick every day and recording the obvious acoustical change as it ages. At first, the change was subtle. Now, the sax can no longer even make a saxophonish noise. Proof positive that a sax changes tonal qualities over time.

Mark
 
#10 ·
We here at FlemTone have been whacking a sax with a drum stick every day and recording the obvious acoustical change as it ages.
Chicken or turkey drumstick?

Speaking seriously though, the thing most likely to change over time in a saxophone is the fit and synchronization of the moving parts. That can and does affect sound quality.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top