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So, I heard some music last night and ......

6K views 67 replies 34 participants last post by  Keith Ridenhour 
#1 ·
last night, after picking up my "new" Buescher Aristocrat tenor, I needed to get some dinner. I stopped at a local place I rarely go to and, as it was Saturday night, there was a trio playing standards to, welll, me and two other people.

Here's what occurred to me as I ate at the bar: these three guys ( drums, electric bass and guitar) were all very good players, emphasis on "very". They played the old warhorses like Stella, Nardis, Someday My prince, Sandu, and a bevy more.
They were very aware of dynamics, too. There was not a false note or a bad one. They were all in their late 30s, to mid 40s, I think.

And it was almost unlistenable for me after 3 tunes.

I wondered, as I drove up the mountain home, if these guys would like what they played if they heard it played back to them. I mean, they obviously were inspired by all the great players and recordings, none of which sounded like this endless line of leading tones they were playing. There was zero tension, almost zero space and, although they seemed to be enjoying themselves, no joy or elan in the music. And certainly, no surprises at all.

I don't mean no surprises for me, as a player. I mean, no place for me as a listener to participate.

The guitaroist had a gorgeous tone and touch and could play anything and everything easily. The electric bassist had a beautiful tone and touch as well, and played a kind of "lead bass" throughout the set I heard. The drummer, who I think had a hard job to try to be creative and also be a bit afraid to hit the drums because of the confined space and the boomy room, played well. He played very nicely throughout


I didn't know these fellows at all, so this was all fresh to me.

I came away wondering if they were trying to sound that way because that's how they want the music to sound, or if they just had taken this path so many times it was easy to "phone it in" in terms of ensemble music. They are not a steady trio but rather an "I've got a gig" band, I'm pretty sure.

But listening to those tunes, I was a bit disheartened by how ordinary and the same they made them sound, with all that talent at their disposal. They didn't seem to be ready to work.

The food was good, the wine better.:|
 
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#2 ·
I mean, no place for me as a listener to participate.|
Joe, that's a terrific phrase.

How many of us have listened to great technical players who've left us out of the music? There are several famous musicians that come to mind. I'm impressed by technical ability as much as the next guy, but "soul", "heart", "feeling", whatever you want to call it, is what's interactive with the listener and leaves a lasting impression. As an example, I think singers and their distinct renditions of the same song really illustrate your point in the most obvious way.
 
#6 ·
I remember a gig I heard, a "pick up gig" at that: Kenny Burrell, Dave Holland and jack DeJohnette, in a small hsll in the mountains. maybe seated 100 people max.
It was obviously Kenny's gig and he called tunes out loud to the band. They investigated each other in the beginning but as the night moved on, kenny called deeper material, and Dave and jack grinned with each new piece. It was an education, seeing how Burrell "created" a band on the spot.

It was 'edge of the seat" stuff, but supremely lyrical, musical and beautiful.

I think that's suppose to be the goal; not every note, of course, but the whole idea about what music can do. When players decide to be improvisors, I think they automatically accept certain responsibilities. The work is trying to fulfill those.

There needs to be some magic. It doesn't have to be "new", just particular and alive.

I feel better now, I think .:scratch:
 
#11 ·
If they were actually good players, I bet that's a regular gig and they phoned it in awhile ago. I see it a lot- people get into a certain rut and just stay in that lane...they know what sounds "good enough" and just stick to that because it's easy. It's like what I tell my students- play what you want to hear, not what you want to play (or what's easy to play). These guys sound like they could probably play more musically but maybe just don't care enough to...which is sad to me.
 
#24 ·
Our rocknblooz band did.
Some of our best gigs were in front of a sparse audience. Worked on dynamics.
It was paid practice.
 
#19 ·
Just for the record, I didn't look disinterested. I was DEEPLY interested, and I listened.
The room sounded fine, the band has a good sound, balanced and just fine.

Some dialog between the musicians would have helped, I think. Some rhythmic tension, some air in the music too. Some musical ideas as opposed to musical formulas?

Good point about it being "just the gig". Maybe that's part of the reason there were so few people, I'm thinking.
 
#21 ·
I sit in with a jazz group that plays occasionally at local restaurants during and after dinner, and I have a slightly different take on this. When playing at a jazz club or a venue where people are coming primarily to listen, we try to be adventuresome, creative, and musically engaging (even if we don't always succeed). But when playing to a dinner crowd, I assume they showed up primarily to eat and interact with their dinner party - not to listen to us. We try to keep the music relatively quiet and "simple" enough that those who don't regularly listen to jazz can still be entertained. I suppose you could say it's just a step or two above Muzac - and maybe it is - but it's out of respect for the audience. That does not mean it should not be musically entertaining and listenable, but I'm not going to play some out stuff or lot's of tensions or deviate too much from the melodic spirit of the tune when improvising in those venues. Funny, though - I was listening to a recording of our last gig, and at one point I played about four bars or so of some totally out stuff at the end of a solo, and I remember feeling kind of bored at that moment and just needing to entertain myself. But then I recovered my sanity and went back to trying to entertain - or at least not offend - the customers. I actually find playing something interesting while not too musically complex to be an interesting challenge.
 
#22 ·
Sometimes seeing live music can be a downer, as a lot of the time it sounds like the players are on auto-pilot.
I have been to a couple shows this year that were moving, and I am thankful for those experiences...but they seem few and far between. At least here in Florida.
A lot of the time it is as Springsteen said, "57 channels and nothing on"....
 
#23 ·
This reminded me a story which happened to me 4 years ago. So i made a road trip with friends with our guitars and we had the obj of not spend a single coin of our pocket and pay everything with the money we earn playing on the streets of the cities we ware going. We ware all amateur and, trust me, without understand sht of music you would notice we ware amateur. So 2 guitars, 3 voices, and one fruit box turned over to be our "Cajon" and voila.

We made around 300 euros per day playing 2~3 hours and every time we had a huge crow singing with us. Found a video of it so you can have an idea...



Now the interesting part. One of this days we ware getting our spot when we passed a really good quartet of chords with 3 nice ladies and 1 guy. They played brilliant and... no one else was giving a fck beside us. No one gave a single coin, no one even stopped to look at them and we standed there for almost half an hour.

The thing was they had 0 interaction with the ppl. they ware like "hey, since we need to prac, lets go to the streets and get some coins?". Well, some how, i dont like that kind of players who go to a place and dont really care about what the ppl is thinking. Like "im here, im gona play what i like, give 0 fck if you like it or not and i am not even going to remember you are there listening"

So i believe this word is a key for every players: "Interaction". We played constantly looking, listening, interacting with ppl and thats why we had so many ppl listening to us.
 
#25 ·
I've had the same Friday night gig at a restaurant for something like 4-5 years and regular Thursday night gig that was twice a month for almost as long- and that recently became weekly. You've given me food for thought. I play with an older guitar player who sticks to certain tunes, and I still enjoy the gigs a lot, but you've challenged me a little to think about how to change it up and keep it interesting. I try to work on tunes on different horns, memorizing them, that sort of thing, and adding some vocals.
 
#28 ·
The first thing I thought of from your description is what I call "academic playing". In some circumstances jazz has been reduced to a kind of connect the dots puzzle where you connect the changes using scales, and try to see how many different scales you can think of to connect the different changes. The result is interesting, but soulless playing. That also accounts for the lack of space in the phrases - just scale running.
 
#29 ·
I actually started to regret starting this thread, but the thoughtful posts have given me some different feelings, ideas, points of view.

So, what would have made me enjoy the music? I think if there had been just a moment in each tune where there was an interesting figure (rhythmic, melodic, harmonic) that made me smile, maybe not a surprise even but something that brought me into the music, I would have been happy. Maybe a solo guitar intro , rubato ? Maybe the "lead bass" carrying the melody ?

One thing about the "lead bass": there was no room in any of his lines. It was a constant string of notes, nothing implied, everything spelled out every which way. I think that had a lot to do with why I couldn't find a way into the music as a listener.

Aside about "the gig": you never know who is in the house, listening to you. We don't have to "bring everything" all the time, but I think we have to "bring something" all the time.
 
#35 ·
Not too long ago, one might say they couldn't swing. Swing is a word that is undefinable but many musicians and audiences have used to describe a lack of connection and emotion, among other things. I hear people that have great appeal to large audiences (large for Jazz) whom I don't like much at all. They just don't reach me. I feel like you did after hearing them. Occasionally I have played with people that I felt that way about and had a little epiphany about why I never liked their playing so much. It is always a 'feel" thing or revolves around the display of technique for technique sake. Gymnastics in music. Synchronized swimming imagined by instruments.
 
#33 ·
Yeah, yeah, this is a lovely, beautiful, high-minded thought. Once again, I will reiterate...we have no clue what the gig deal was, whether these guys were really a cohesive unit which practiced together regularly, etc., etc. Too many variables....

Also, many a musician has achieved technical, academic proficiency yet they just don't really 'feel' it.

Musicians, artists, dancers, writers, you name it....

It's truly lovely to say "give 110% of yourself, always".

Anyone here wanna raise their hand and tell me in all honesty they always do this ? (whether at work, at play, in a relationship, etc., etc....)

...that's what I thought....
 
#44 ·
Considering that there was only an audience of three for the show you went to, I can imagine the band might not have been that motivated. I have (or at least had) a regular Tuesday / Wednesday night dinner gig with my small blues band that was, unlike most of our gigs - a wallpaper gig. The place is always packed, but sax is generally too loud for them even without a mic. Nobody listens and the band is not meant to be heard. It's just an atmospheric thing in a very trendy restaurant. We treated that gig differently. We played it like no one was listening. In our case, that meant often being experimental, but it also mean goofing off sometimes - and at least one of us (the drummer) hated it, so he didn't even try most nights - and it's not that he's no good with brushes (He is). I just think he was depressed by the whole gig and would rather have not even been there. I've seen that attitude many times over the years when audiences were very small, or the gig was to be seen - not heard.
 
#45 ·
- a wallpaper gig.
That was my take on it also. And probably the venue wants it that way.

However, I would never assume no one is listening. We've played gigs like this, thinking no one is paying any attention, only to have people come up on the break and say how much they are enjoying the music. So it's often the case that at least some people are listening (even in the case Joe describes, there were only 3 or 4 people there, but he was listening). I've also experienced the attitude Fader's drummer exhibits, and have had to fight with myself to not fall into that, but if you are getting paid to do the gig and you are playing in public, I think you owe it to yourself, to the venue, and esp to anyone who is there, to play the best you can and put some passion into it.

My other thought on what Joe described is that music is meant to be played with passion. It that's lacking, then all the technique in the world is meaningless.
 
#46 ·
Went into a busy club about a year ago. The band started playing stereotypical jazz, lot of notes, scales and no melody. That band emptied the bar in 20 minutes.
 
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