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Learning to replace pads - Choosing pads?

7K views 38 replies 9 participants last post by  Gange 
#1 ·
I need to replace the original pads on my alto (Selmer Reference) and I was thinking about doing it myself. The reason is that the pads stick. A lot. And I have not been able to fix it. I've tried papers, lighter fluid, etc.

I want to learn this myself. I have an old Yamaha 23 with very worn pads that I will practise on, but I don't really know what kind of pads I should get. The only thing I know is that I want pads that don't get soaked and don't stick.

I have torn the horns apart and measured the pad cups as well as I could with the pads still in the cups.

Judging from this forum Pisoni, Prestini and MusicMedic seem to provide good quality pads. The later two are also providing pads made of kangaroo skin. I have read both side's opinions about them. I'm still undecided.

What struck me is the difference in price, where Prestini is about half the price. Are they really as good as the others?

Is one or the other type/brand easier to work with?

What thickness should I choose for each horn?
 
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#2 ·
Feeling lonely here guys... :-(

Meanwhile, in my solitude, I'll continue with my project and share the progress here for the ones that might be in the same situation. Suggestions, hints, dos and don'ts are most welcome! I might even spice it up with some pictures!

I know the result will be better sending it to a pro tech, but techs here don't usually work weekends when I can travel and the best and closest one would be in Copenhagen so I don't want to send it.

Being a EE/SW engineer I reckon a rework station would be good as a torch. Adjustable temperature and air flow should help me avoiding burning lacquer and pearls. I just need to build a stand for it so I can use both hands.

I have already fashioned a leak light out of three 1W LED strips and shrink tube. Seems to work just fine.

I have considered ordering a Z-gun from MusicMedic as several on this forum seem to be happy with it. Seems like it would be easier to control the amount of adhesives with it than using stick shellac.

About the price on Prestini, I found out that the prices in Europe are not that much cheaper than Pisoni/MusicCenter. I will most likely order their top of the line pads. Still undecided about kangaroo yet. There is a seller on Ebay (USA) selling black kangaroo pad sets quite sheep. (sorry, couldn't resist..)
Prestini has a lower limit on how much you can order, so I think I'll order the two sets and then some extra for the upper stack, palm keys and octave keys for spares. They answered quickly and to the point on questions, so I will ask them about advice on pad thickness. They are indeed run by the "Keilwerth family".
 
#3 ·
Before fitting new pads, get yourself some tonehole files such as the Jim Schmidt ones as they're brass discs with diamond grit abrasive, so you'll get a nice level tonehole using these as opposed to flat files which can easily distort toneholes if you don't keep them perfectly flat during filing.

Yamahas are very easy to work on and MusicMedic pads will go in nicely on these. You may need slightly thicker pads for Selmers, but do a dry fit first (fit the pad without any shellac and see where it's not seating). If the pads aren't closing at the back at all (with a huge gap nearest the key barrel/rod screw), then you'll need thicker pads. If they're only slightly off at the back, then the amount of shellac in the pad cup will take up that gap. If the pads aren't closing at the front, then they're too thick.

I use a small hand-held gas torch with an adjusting ring to regulate the amount of air in the mix. When using it to seat pads I reduce the amount of air so the flame is yellow so that's reducing the risk of scorching the lacquer. Heat the pad cups but don't catch the pearls - if working on saxes with plastic fingerbuttons, remove them as they will melt very easily. You can protect the pearls by using the high F key pad cup (without a pad in there) as a pearl protector, but you can always make one from a shallow metal cup with a handle hard soldered or welded to it (depending what metal you've made it from).

Don't use any excessive pressure to close the pads onto the toneholes - you only want to close the pads against them rather than forcing them closed and either wear cotton gloves or use a cotton cloth to prevent burning your fingers when closing the pad cups down when seating the pads while the shellac is still molten.

Aim to get even closure all around the circumference of the tonehole instead of leaving the pads light at the front as that will make for a spongy feel as you'll have to force the pads to close. If anything, make them slightly lighter at the backs (nearest the key barrels) but still closing under light finger pressure. When regulating LH and RH main actions, make sure you have the uppermost pad in each stack closing with a bit more pressure than the fingerplates as this will take into account the torsion in the metal and will ensure the pads are all closing. If the uppermost pad in the RH main action is too light, then that will cause problems when the G# pad cup opens when playing low C#, B and Bb as the spring pressure from the G# pad cup will force the G vent pad open (the pad that's closing over the tonehole the note G issues from). The RH main action also has to close the Bb Bis key pad too, so be sure you factor in the amount of torsion in the mechanism to make it close both the G# and Bb Bis key pads. Easier said than done, but Yamahas have adjusting screws that will allow you to make the extra bit of adjustment needed to do this. If you set it all up text book perfect, later on you'll have to adjust things, so slightly over adjust everything so when it all beds in, you'll have no serious adjustment issues.
 
#4 ·
Get some calipers. I usually measure the key cups and use a sharpie to write the pad sizes in the key cups. That makes it very easy to match up pads to keys. Also use a razor to pry out the plastic pearls or you'll probably set them on fire.
 
#5 ·
Yamaha 23s have the screw adjusters which save you a lot of time from shimming also.
 
#6 ·
I just helped a close friend with his SA80 ii who is/was in the same position that you are.

Of course, if you want to do a high end job, get a bunch of tools - tone hole files, levelers, anvils etc. But if your sax is in pretty good condition and it's just the pads that are sticking, the absolute easiest thing to do is call MusicMedic and get a set of pads. We used the metal dome w/rivet thin standard pads.

I usually send measurements but I now trust MM to get it as right or better than if I make the measurements. I tend to average down from decimal to mm conversion. MM sent me a set of pads for a Comm 3 tenor that were about as close as you can get. The SA was closer to my measuring with, like, a half mm gap. One of my local tech friends recommends a tiny gap around the edge to make adjustments easier.

On the SA, I tried an experiment. Coat the pad cup with shellac, let it cool, dry fit the pads, assemble, check level with a leak light and cork the keys. Then, I heated the keys. If you don't mind a little shellac showing around the edges, the results were that I only had to reheat one pad.

MusicMedic products are as good or better than other companies but their customer service to us 'dyi' types is far above what you'll find at Ferrees or Prestini. Others, like Allied, won't even talk to you.

Edit...Btw, that's great info on the thickness of pads, Chris. If one were to find the need for different thickness, MM will back you up either with a return or their fit guarantee.

Ymmv.
 
#7 ·
Also have a read at the various articles on MusicMedic's site with regards to fitting pads. Things like pad irons and other tools can be found on eBay - I'd suggest you get a set of both 1mm and if you can find them, 0.5mm pad irons as these ones will get the pads seating just right with the backs a shade lighter than the fronts when closed with light finger pressure against the toneholes. What I usually do is apply the shellac to the backs of the pads and also a light coating of shellac in the pad cups to ensure a good bond. Then heat the pad cup while it's on the instrument and slip the pad into the pad cup. Then use the thicker pad irons to make sure the pad is in, push the centre of the resonator (lay the pad iron on the tonehole and gently close the pad down onto it) to expel any trapped air to the sides of the pad and rotate the pad within the pad cup to spread the shellac around inside there too.
 
#9 ·
#10 ·
As well as the backs of the pads being supported with shellac, you also want the sidewalls supported. I personally like pads to be a good but also slightly tight fit in the pad cup so they're supported all around the circumference, but still get the shellac to the sides to support them if they're a bit loose. If any shellac oozes out the sides, either remove it while it's still in a half molten state by running the tip of a screwdriver around the corner of the pad and pad cup, or wait until it's cool and chip it away. The only risk when chipping it off when cooled is it could loosen the shellac away from the pad cup or the pad itself. Or use a heated screwdriver to gently melt and remove any cooled shellac that's oozed out, but be sure not to burn the pad leather.
 
#11 ·
I'm all for learning to maintain a horn and developing basic skills, but I wouldn't consider repadding one horn as sufficient experience before repadding your Selmer Ref 54 alto.

Do you have a tech that is going to be willing to reseat your pads and adjust the horn after you have had your hands in it?
 
#12 ·
I use a rag while its still molten and it works well, and also prevents the ring of shellac on the pad near the key cup that can occur. Its really good as long as you move in the shape of the key cup and not across the pad. I use a rag that is disposable.
 
#15 ·
Wow, great info! Thanks a lot! It's definitely a lot to digest and helpful.

@Dr G: Well, repadding the first horn will tell me if I should try the other. And I don't think a tech would turn down a job. As I stated in post #2 I'm reluctant to use files just for just that reason. If I mess up I want that someone will be able to clean up my mess. Worst case scenario is that I have bought some tools and pads and wasted some time.

I checked yesterday and yes, the key cups are deeper onthe Selmer than on the Yamaha, so thanks for the hint there. In Prestini terminology:
thin: 3,8 - 3,9 mm
medium-thin (standard): 4,0 - 4,1 mm
medium: 4,2 - 4,3 mm
Would Yamaha be standard and Selmer be medium?
 
#20 ·
@Dr G: Well, repadding the first horn will tell me if I should try the other. And I don't think a tech would turn down a job. As I stated in post #2 I'm reluctant to use files just for just that reason. If I mess up I want that someone will be able to clean up my mess. Worst case scenario is that I have bought some tools and pads and wasted some time.
So somewhat worse than your worst case scenario, is that a tech has to follow up from your efforts without all these vital clues for pad selection, and probably also selection of thickness and material for key stops and linkages. That could add quite a bit of time for the technician.
This is what I'm talking about. It is more difficult to undo and correct a bad job, than it is to do it right the first time. If you don't seat the pads correctly, the tech will have to remove everything and start from scratch - and who's to say that you even use the right pads for the particular horn? Then there's the matter of regulating materials and keys heights. It's much more intensive than just taking apart the mechanism, swapping the pads, and putting it back together.

G'luck.
 
#16 ·
You look at a few pads and whether they close right - well aligned with tone holes. You check pad impressions for depth. Then you take those pads out and see how thick they are and what sort of glue bed they do or don't have. Then from all that information, you select pad thickness that hopefully corresponds to the general alignment of key cups with tone holes.

You may still need to realign key cups. That is a pretty standard part of repadding, unless you mess with thick beds of glue, and maybe finish up with pads at odd angles in key cups. Instrument makers don't usually use thick beds of glue.

So somewhat worse than your worst case scenario, is that a tech has to follow up from your efforts without all these vital clues for pad selection, and probably also selection of thickness and material for key stops and linkages. That could add quite a bit of time for the technician.
 
#18 ·
You look at a few pads and whether they close right - well aligned with tone holes. You check pad impressions for depth. Then you take those pads out and see how thick they are and what sort of glue bed they do or don't have. Then from all that information, you select pad thickness that hopefully corresponds to the general alignment of key cups with tone holes.
Another great point particularly on an older instrument. Not all techs stock different thicknesses and will use what's on hand, correcting the alignment to suit the new pads. I don't think the OP has that problem. The Selmer pads in the SA measure at .165 which, I understand, is standard for thin pads.
 
#17 ·
The problem is that I can't really start removing the pads on the Selmer until I
1. feel confident in giving it a go, i.e. the Yamaha turned out well,
2. I have the new pads. Otherwise I will have a too long downtime on my main horn.

If this was my profession I would remove the old one and have had plenty of pads to choose from in my shop, but that is not the case.

Post #9 of this old thread I found informative regarding pad thickness: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?168615-Pisoni´s-web

@Gordon: Would it help saving the old pads in case I need to bring the horn to more competent hands?
 
#21 ·
You gents are assuming far too much for a worst case scenario. Techs get horns with mismatched pads, missing corks and felts and bent keywork. Are you really suggesting that the OP can mangle it so badly that a competent tech can't make it right again?

Please, give me a break.
 
#22 ·
No, that's not what I said at all. But if the tech has to remove and reseat every pad, then level and adjust, that is just as much work - maybe more - than doing the job right from scratch.

Please, give me a break. :bluewink:
 
#25 ·
I used to own a Hallburg P28 wooden sloop. A pro boat carpenter told me I could do any job he does but it will take me more time.

Not to create an argument with you, Doc, but techs reseat pads, level and adjust keys, replace corks or felts that were poorly done on a regular basis, often by "pros". Look at all the specialty tools designed just for this.

The OP has the right idea of not doing any filing or bending which is the part that can make matters worse.
 
#26 ·
Not to create an argument with you, Doc...
Really? Yet you persist. I am more than fully aware of what techs do on a regular basis. I am also familiar with the concept of rework, having worked as a quality control engineer in a production facility.

I have stipulated what I'm talking about - the tech time required to remove/replace/reseat pads that are improperly seated or of wrong thickness. If a pad is not properly seated with sufficient (and correct) shellac, the pad has to be removed, the cup cleaned, new shellac flowed, etc. before even considering adjusting.

Back to you.
 
#29 ·
It doesn't - if you're replacing a pad, you're replacing a pad.

What is more hassle is if you're trying to reseat a badly seated pad with a deep impression onto an uneven tonehole - you'd be better off replacing that pad with a new one as well as checking and levelling the tonehole to start with.
 
#31 ·
Go for it.

There are lots of info on this site on how to do it.

But I would not recommend doing it on your ref 54, they are to nice of a sax to learn on, and anything under 20 repads, sorry your still learning, do a thousand repads and I guarantee you, you will still be learning new things.

My ref 54 sticks occasionally as well, one day Ill repad it. But I really dont want to

So whats to be gained by a tech doing it and yourself.

A good tech can get your sax to play with the lightest of air pressure and not to heavy finger pressure so playing your sax is a joy not a chore.

A badly padded instrument will be difficult to play and a chore to use.

An average repadded instrument will be fine to play with strong breath support and finger pressure.

I find it quite normal to have to pull the pads out of a sax thats been recently repadded and do the whole process again,

Steve
 
#34 ·
One thing you can try out when seating pads is to make them seat against their respective tonehole under just the weight of the key itself without the spring engaged. Let the pad cup fall closed by gravity alone and check how the pad seats. If it's seating all the way round, then your job is done as you're not applying any additional pressure to force the pad to close.
 
#35 ·
I find that depending on the particular key, hooking a spring back on can put enough force on the key to flex it a little and change the alignment with the tone hole. So I adjust with spring attached.
 
#38 ·
I actually read chirs's post and I did not want to contradict what he said, as its a great starting point when learning to float pads, but I will concur with your findings, dependant on how much spring tension the key is under, it completley changes the relationship of the pad and tone hole
 
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