Link Quality Issues

[ChocolateSlim04]

Otto Link 6* - THIS mouthpiece must have been the worst link they released out of the factory because it was terrible the first time I played on it. It was stuffy and very inconsistent when going through the full range of the horn. I picked it up a few days later and tried it again it was a little better but was still very uneven and inconsistent. It is relatively dark mouthpiece not to dark but dark. I was a little disappointed to find that all the rumors were true about links being inconsistent and that you have to try a lot of them to find a good one. I have played on a link on alto for 6 years and I have never had a problem and I love it most people like the link on tenor but I jus tried it on alto and I loved it but that doesn't excuse that sorry excuse for a link that I played on last week. The altissimo range is very hard to play in. Babbitt needs to put some better care into making their mouthpieces. On a scale from 1 to 10 I give it maybe a 4 or 5.

[Rubel]

Why would you buy a mouthpiece you describe as "terrible"?

Rubel

[dirty]

Probably a WWBW trial kind of thing.

[mountainman]

Why would you buy a mouthpiece you describe as "terrible"?

Rubel

We have to be very careful when we talk about "terrible" wether we are talking about "terrible workmanship", "terrible playability" (subjective), or "terrible sound" ( very subjective) AND what horn is it being played with which reed!.

The two Otto Link NY 7*'s from which I started this post look nearly identical externally and both "play" very easily. One sounds great (subj.) and one screeches on a JK Shadow with Superial #3. The "bright" one has a step baffle and is poorly finished inside. The "dark" one as a nice smooth interior like the external finish and no step.

All of the discussion regarding table flatness, rail variation, and facing curve variations is great and may enhance playability! and sound? That would be great. These were not issues for me. It's all about the sound.

To further illustrate the need for defining all the conditions: an Otto Link hard rubber 7* which was my "dark" piece on a Grassi and a B&S 2001 was what on the Shadow I described as "muddy" which may be the same as some call "stuffy"?

[sinkdraiN]

To further illustrate the need for defining all the conditions: an Otto Link hard rubber 7* which was my "dark" piece on a Grassi and a B&S 2001 was what on the Shadow I described as "muddy" which may be the same as some call "stuffy"?

It is also important to note WHO is experiencing the subtle differences. The guy with the piece of metal sticking out of his face or the listener. The way equipment resonates and vibrates in our mouths and through our hands really tricks our ears.

My sax is unlacquered because I notice a significant difference when I play it compared to the lacquered version. On tape there is no difference...and everyone I A/B'ed them to heard them as the same.

Of course, our own perceptions will effect the way we play but it is only as important as we let them be. Joe Schmoe on table 6 is not going to hear it the same way as the player will.

[shmuelyosef]

Mojo-
in fact in the past I have had Links reworked both by Theo Wanne and JVW and as remarked above the improvement was minimal at best and unjustifiable in the cost/value ,gain ratio. I currently have a bought off the shelf STM 7* ($75.00)and a Tenney 7*S ($300.00+)and the perceivable difference in response,playability, reed friendliness, or tonal pallette is virtually nonexistant. I'm not knocking your craft but I think a lot of players are looking for something that they aren't gonna get from a mpc, refaced or not.

I agree with everything that you say except the reed-friendliness...in my experience this is the biggest difference. On most of my hand-faced pieces, I can play all the reeds in nearly every box just fine...some take a little break in, but after 2-3 shots for 10-15 minutes they all play...my Wanne Link is still the best with reeds.

[rleitch]

Wow!

Although it has cost me about a half day's worth of work , I've really enjoyed reading this thread!

I was raised Catholic, so it's good finally to discover that it's okay to enjoy playing with my link

Seriously, though, I posted a question about some problems I've been having with my link Hr and the overwhelming opinion I got back was that it was surely a bad one which needed to be repaired or tossed.

I listened, of course, but the idea that there's a whole bunch of bad links circulating around just didn't seem right to me. What I needed, it seems to have turned out, was to experiment a bit (and be more careful with) the placement of my Rovner ligature. It works better placed back further on my 8* than on the 6*.

[MojoBari]

If ligature placement makes a big difference, this is often an indication the the table is not flat where it should be. Links usually have concave tables with high heels. Moving your lig back may do things like opening/closing the tip some based on how it bows the reed. If you get good results, no problem.

[Bill Mecca]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to the surface, I read it originally but enjoyed re-reading it. Phil and Doc and Mojo have some classic posts in there.

[asaxman]

I'm happy I stumbled onto this thread!!! It's the best, and most informative piece of reading, EVER, on SOTW!!!

[ssleb]

...Moving your lig back may do things like opening/closing the tip some based on how it bows the reed....

I sense this very much on my Link STM 6*. I use the stock lig. with it and depending on what kind of playing I am doing, I move my ligature up or down.

When I move it up, the high register and altissimo are easier and I can fly across and up, but the really low subtones are too hard.

When I move it down, I can subtone all the way to Bb, but I can't altissimo higher than C#4.

The trick with Links (and all other mp's I would expect) is to find that golden spot to put your lig. and develop your playing on it. Personally, I keep my lig far down in order to get the low notes, because I just love playing down low. And I can still get quite a bit of altissimo (more than I ever need).

[asaxman]

Link ligatures are BAD! Use anything but... You might try a Selmer metal, or a Rovner, but the Links are ALL OVER the reed!

[ssleb]

I do fine with it. It's just about what you're looking for.

[MojoBari]

The trick with Links (and all other mp's I would expect) is to find that golden spot to put your lig. and develop your playing on it

If you find it difficult to get repeatable results, I would recommend getting the table flattened.

[madav]

The trick with Links (and all other mp's I would expect) is to find that golden spot to put your lig. and develop your playing on it. Personally, I keep my lig far down in order to get the low notes, because I just love playing down low. And I can still get quite a bit of altissimo (more than I ever need).

Regardless of whether you have mpc quality issues, there is a significant amount you can do to manipulate mpc response by reed and lig placement. This can be useful to extend the lifetime of a reed or to improve the playability of a reed.
I'm thinking in particular here of how close the reed tip and mpc match/overlap and how much of the reed can be allowed to vibrate. For harder reeds in a batch, putting the lig further back on the stock seems to allow more of the reed to vibrate and improves response. It can be truly surprising how critical reed placement can be, and how much tonal variation results. I don't doubt that issues with the table will also impact, but before you get too excited with refacing, it's probably worthwhile to look at consistent and possibly different reed placement

[shmuelyosef]

It's not the "thickness" per se of the reed table that's important. It's the position of the reed plane relative to the tip rail, baffle and chamber as well as the position of the tip rail relative to the bore centerline that is very important and can be influenced by the "thickness" of the reed table on some designs.

I never read this thread, but your comments are consistent with my observations. Like Mojo said, the listener probably can't tell, but the response is dramatically different...do you also think that the angle of the table, then, is also a contributor to the response.

Also, Phil, some of us aren't obsessed about the equipment that we actually play, but we have analytical background that just drives us to be curious about "why does this work" and "why doesn't this??"...that's probably what drove Doc and Mojo to study how to make mouthpieces play easily and consistently on any reed, which (IMHO) is the biggest benefit of having a mouthpiece carefully faced by hand to a specification.

[shmuelyosef]

Aw c'mon, Phil. You don't really think we're spending all our time obsessing about mouthpieces when we should be practicing, do you? Absolutely not true, we're also obsessing about reeds, ligatures, the metal coating on our necks, the right cork greese, wind direction, the proper phase of the moon...

I'm obsessing on the chicks at the bar table in front...

[shmuelyosef]

If Babbitt uses a little fixturing and a cylindrical grinder there is no reason why the table should not be perfectly flat and the facing curve uniform from side to side and perfect every time! If they use a fixture, a milling machine, and quality control; OR a CNC machine there is no reason why the baffle and throat leading to the bore should not be consistent.

There are companies that make extremely consistent playable mouthpieces in a mass-production facility...Vandoren, Yanagisawa, to name a couple. I have been very impressed with the Yani pieces and play them on Bari and soprano. But I still play a Link on tenor and a Meyer on alto...don't know why, just because.

[Phil Barone]

I've never head a link described as "pompous". LOL.

That's why when you describe sound you have to use words that everyone understands. Bright, dark, thin, spread. Otherwise nobody knows what you're talking about. I certainly I hope Batman doesn't think Coltrane sounded like Hank Mobely. I'd know Trane in two notes way before the announcer said anything which is my point, let's say, Links allow you to get the post personal sound possible. I could also tell Sonny R very fast or most legends but I certainly don't see any similarity between any of the sound wise. Phil

[Phil Barone]

You can badmouth Bergs all you want I have played a "decrepit" second hand HR Berg 2M .105 opening on Bari for the last 15 years and would really like to be able to duplicate it when it dies!!!!

Yeah, some of the bari ones were good. Ronny Cuber gave me both of his when I customized a Link for him. Ya know, in every instance you have to consider that a certain player might have played a Berg or anything else for a reason. They got old and it was easier to play, endorsment deals, was just trying it out, maybe he sounded better on the Link but didn't know it. Phil