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Mic preamps again!

9K views 41 replies 14 participants last post by  ZootTheSim 
#1 ·
(FYI, I did research the forum on this and was left a bit confused).

I would like to slowly upgrade my simple windows computer recording setup. Shure Beta 98H/C -> ART Tube Pre -> Audacity.

I was thinking of upgrading the mic but think the ART is the weak line. So I have been looking at getting a better mic interface. The ones I have looked at seem either really cheap or very expensive and leave me wondering what an appropriate step up is.

Seems like a decent mic pre with xlr and phantom power starts around $500 with no A/D. Which leads me thinking I should just go with one with A/D and upgrade software too. I don't really want to get into complicated software though.

So what do you recommend?

1. mid-range mic pre with no A/D.
2. full mic interface with A/D and new software?

thanks
 
#2 ·
How many inputs do you need?

I'm very happy with the sound of my RME Babyface. The Apogee's sound good as well.

(Note...I didn't say that I'm happy with my sound on the Babyface...but that's another thing entirely. :bluewink:)
 
#3 ·
I'm not 100% sure if it satisfies all of your needs as I'm not familiar with exact specs of it, but take a look at the Focusrite Scarlett Solo, it has one mic input with phantom power and one instrument input with inst. and line settings.It also comes with a free Abelton Live Lite download so it will upgrade you from audacity, which is what I was using before I got mine (I have since moved onto Acoustica Mixcraft). It's a USB audo interface, so all you need to do is plug it into your computer and download the drivers on the website they give you. The solo starts at $100, but you can get more inputs as you dish out more cash. The XLR input comes with a built in Focusrite preamp.

Check out this link
http://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces

There you have a list of all of their interfaces. I'm very happy with my solo.
 
#4 ·
Does your current ART Tube Pre have an A/D converter? If it does not, then whatever is serving as your A/D converter might be your weak link.
The Shure Beta 98H/C seems to go for about $200.
You state that a decent pre-amp with phantom power but without A/D goes for about $500, but this implies you are willing to use a $500 pre-amp with a $200 mic. I would think you would want to flip that ratio.
 
#6 ·
I use the A/D in the computer. I get that the Beta 98 is not a pro level mic but I can't afford to upgrade everything. I know the ART is a POS, so maybe I should go with an interface that does A/D too and replace that entire part of the system. Could then upgrade mic at a later date. if that is the case, maybe the BabyFace is the way to go.
 
#8 ·
Woody Reed recommended the UAD Apollo twin, because you get some awesome plugins. However, it's a thunderbolt interface, so you would need a PCIe thunderbolt card to make it run in windows. Thunderbolt is really fast, and you can record with very little latency. The RME interfaces are also highly recommended. Your best bet for improvement, though, is getting a better mic. There are many solutions available for not much money, relatively speaking.

I'm a big fan of large diaphragm condensers, but there are dynamic and ribbon mikes that will do a fine job. If you have two inputs, it's nice to record your sax with more than one mic at different distances, and either pick one or mix them together. The 'big boys' will throw half a dozen microphones in front of a sax, and pick the best one or combination.

I would also recommend you ditch Audacity and 'upgrade' to Reaper.
 
#11 ·
Woody Reed recommended the UAD Apollo twin, because you get some awesome plugins. However, it's a thunderbolt interface, so you would need a PCIe thunderbolt card to make it run in windows.
Actually, that won't work with the UAD Apollo TB unfortunately. There is a lot of grumbling about it on UADs forum. There are no window drivers that will work. And from what I gather from UAD, there aren't any in the foreseeable future either. So a company that has been very supportive of Windows seems to be getting away from it. A major update to the Apollo software comes out next month and requires thunderbolt and there will be no PC support. Only mac. Otherwise, the Apollo solo or twin would be an outstanding choice.
 
#14 ·
I haven't read all the replies here (sorry) but you have three elements here.
Mic, preamp and converter.
The Shure mics can get a really great sound through a good preamp. (the BETA 98 is actually a really good mic on horns in my experience, I use one lots.) A really great mic that is relatively cheap would be a Shure SM7, recommended to me initially by Oasis's producer, but generally respected in Audio circles, but there are many many choices, which ideally you'd be best off trying. Think of Ribbon mics too, be aware that they really need a good preamp capable of providing enough gain, but they are wonderfully natural sounding.

Next the preamp, for me this is often overlooked and makes a HUGE difference to sound, personally I'd recommend Seventh CIrcle Audio's one shot (https://seventhcircleaudio.com/products/12) this can be built by them for you or supplied as a kit, (the N72 and A12 being very respected, and very very cheap for what they are, these are Neve and Api reproductions).

finally the converters to get the signal into your DAW (computer workstation) RME make very good products, as do many other manufacturers, its worth going for something pretty modern as the technology is ever changing, a year or two makes a great difference to which chips are used etc. The mic pres on these units are nowhere near what you'll get with a dedicated discrete premp though, beware.

hope that helps? (forgive my spelling.)
 
#15 ·
All of this input has helped alot.

I am going to keep the Beta 98 for awhile, at least until I get better on sax and get better at recording.

I will buy a USB interface to improve the digital quality. I am not sure I can afford the RME Babyface, though it has stellar reviews. Looking at the Focusrite 2i4 Scarlett. Elsewhere on this forum, the scarlett seems to have gotten mixed reviews. I have to find something that works with Audacity (or Reaper if I change it out), as I am not wanting to spend money on mixing software.

One last question - If I want to record myself with backing tracks, do I need three inputs: 2 (stereo) for the backing track and one (mono) for Sax? or can I record backing track and dub over it (latency issues).

thanks again for everyone's help!
 
#16 ·
You can just import the stereo backing track directly into your DAW and listen to it from the DAW while recording your sax, if you don't have latency issues. There are settings you can use to minimize latency in a system, such as not using reverb as you're recording.
 
#17 ·
quick update - I downloaded Reaper and as I was going through the compatible interfaces, I noticed that the EMU 0404 USB popped up. I just happen to have one in the closet. I think the DAC is actually pretty good in it although it sure ain'st top of the line or anything, way better than the DAC in my computer at any rate. The drivers stopped working in Windows 7 but I was able to get it working in Windows 8. So I now have a reasonable DAC to record into Reaper. I can't play anything fancy but may post a clip just to get some feed back on sound (and my tone :) )
 
#19 ·
To dust off an old thread, can anyone recommend a mini preamp to use with an ATM350 mic as a personal on-stage monitor? I'm looking for XLR input with phantom power running off a battery, headphone output (mini-jack or 1/4 inch), and a belt clip. My goal is to hear what's coming out of my clip-on mic through my headphones, but without sending it to the sound board. The audio doesn't have to be studio-quality, since it's just for me, but I'd prefer a flat response to give a better sense of my actual tone.

The only box I've found for under $100 is the ART Pro Audio USB Project Series Dual Preamp, but it's a bit large, has more features than I need, and has no belt clip. I like the small form factor of the iRig, but understand that it requires an iPhone to be attached in order to receive amplified headphone output.
 
#20 ·
Here is a very inelegant suggestion: I currently tape a Zoom H1 recorder to my stand mic, then used it as a monitor with a set of loosely fitting headphones to get a better mix of my horn sound amid the rest of the band noise. Since you want to use in with a clip-on mic and not attached to a stand mic, you could use a lavalier mic such as this https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/co...&m=Y&c3api=1876,92051678762,&is=REG&A=details and attach it to some sort of clip-on gizmo such as your ATM350 has.

It takes just a little fiddling with the settings to get the right amount sensitivity and output correct, but not much. And you have the option of recording yourself if you like.
 
#21 ·
That's actually a clever solution, claxton, and it might be the right one--though I was really hoping to find a way to stick with my current ATM350. I'm not sure why there seem to be lots of portable phantom power supplies, and lots of mini-preamps or personal monitors, but few devices that combine both features. Huh.
 
#30 ·
I was really hoping to find a way to stick with my current ATM350.
Thinking outside the box your thinking in, maybe try this http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-...Sennheiser wireless instrument system&index=2 You can hook your ATM350 to the wireless then plug headphones into the receiver unit to monitor.

Also, looking at this old thread, just an update on the UAD Twin referenced earlier. There is a USB3 version now for PC. It is PC only. If you use MAC, you have to use the TB version.
 
#22 ·
I've never found a battery based preamp with phantom power either. I want one to boost my mic signal to run it through guitar effects but they never have the battery option. I experimented with a rolls MP13 + pedaltrain volto, but that's heavily into the unwieldy area (and wasn't really reliable) :)
 
#23 ·
Well you might want to avoid the ART USB Project Series Dual, ottoko. I bought one a couple days ago, and plugged in my earphones, but I could only monitor the mic signal in one ear. Even my cheap old Shure unit splits the feed to both ears, and provides more gain to boot.

Worse still, once the 9V battery was installed in the Art Dual, I could neither replace the battery compartment hatch nor remove the battery itself, which fit too snugly in the device. Not exactly desirable when your battery dies in the middle of a gig. When I returned it to my LMS the next day, the dude had to take it in the back and spend 15 minutes removing the entire casing to get the battery out. I've since read reviews online reporting the same frustration.

So it's back to the drawing board.
 
#24 ·
haha, this is awkward, I actually have the ART Dual :)
I bought it as a simple usb audio interface for my mac when I don't need too many channels. still too unwieldy to tape to mu sax but it never even occurred to me that I could use it as a simple pre amp for my live setup and that I can power it with a battery. jeeez.

looking at it now I can see the battery removal difficulties waiting to happen, but I'm still gonna try it. do you have any idea how long a battery lasts?
 
#25 ·
-- kind of off-topic --

just to clarify, and because pics are nice, here's my current preamp setup.

Product Font Gas Automotive tire Circuit component


so if I replace the FMR Really Nice Preamp (which is really nice) with the ART dual, I could power everything with batteries :)
 
#26 ·
Cool, hope you have better luck than me, ottoko! Not sure how long the battery lasts: I only tried it for an hour or so before boxing it back up and returning it. But I'd be really interested to hear whether it works out for you. There's still the issue of the one-channel monitoring, but maybe there's some fix for that, or maybe you prefer it that way so you can keep one ear on the band.

I'm now looking instead for a small, affordable phantom power headphone monitor with a power adapter. It would still mean being tethered to an outlet, but that's a fairly minimal set-up when jumping up on stage for a number.
 
#27 ·
I just picked up the ART DPSII and am really liking it.

It's very responsive to the adjustments and I'm using it to master my mixes from all my samplers as well as use as a preamp for my sax and effects.

I recorded Sugar today using the new preamp and am pretty happy with the result.

www.soundcloud.com/seanwintersax/sugar

this was recorded with my Beta 98 wireless and I used the warm vocal setting on the preamp and adjusted the gain and output until I got a sound I liked.
 
#31 ·
Thanks Woody, but I was hoping to keep my system in the $100 range. But I just discovered this newish offering from Zoom:

https://www.zoom-na.com/products/pr...io-interfaces/zoom-u-22-handy-audio-interface

It's small and light, with 48V phantom power and zero-latency headphone monitoring, and even runs on batteries, all for $99. Provided the gain's sufficient and the batteries last long enough, it might just do the trick. I plan to order one tomorrow, so will let you know if it works better than the Behringer mini tube preamp I picked up.
 
#32 ·
To follow up, the Zoom U-22 is a bust as a personal monitor. It mostly works as advertised, and is great for, say, digitizing LPs or cassettes. But no matter how high I turn up the gain or volume, the headphone monitor jack only outputs a thin, buzzy sound like a very small kazoo. That's with my ATM-350 mic, which sounds just fine on recordings, and does a good job of attenuating background noise. But this setup sucks for live monitoring.

Back to the drawing board. . . .
 
#36 ·
Oh I see, good point. I have tried running it on internal batteries, and a couple different external USB power sources (and just did again to make sure), but to no avail. Turning up the gain loud enough to hear anything introduces too much noise, and the signal's just not clear enough to be useful. Even my old SHURE PSM-200 wireless monitor has a much stronger and clearer output.

I'd have more pre-monitors to choose from if my ATM-350 didn't require phantom power. Can anyone recommend a good cardioid clip-on mic that doesn't need phantom power?
 
#38 ·
Ground loops have to do with where the power for two separate devices that are sharing the same audio signal is coming from. Basically, if you plug in an audio interface or a mixer to power one circuit, and a speaker or amp to a different circuit which has a different ground, then you can get a ground loop, since the thing that connects to the devices is the audio circuit. (It's possible to use different circuits that share the same ground connection, but then you're dealing with power distributions systems, and probably already have a qualified sound engineer or event electrician working on the show). Since you are using batteries, or a single power cable for your Zoom interface it's unlikely to be a ground loop. Unless there is an internal wiring problem with the Zoom unit or a bad trace on the circuit board.

The ATM-350 mic is a decent mic and shouldn't have any problems with low gain or buzzes if it works on other interfaces or mixers. It's possible that it requires more power than what the Zoom can provide, which could cause a low signal. It's also possible that one of the wires on the XLR input on the Zoom is disconnected, which can cause issues like you describe, since both the hot and cold terminals need to be connected to pass phantom power, and a low signal level is the primary indication that either of the + or - terminals on the XLR connector are disconnected. (Could also be that one of the other of the same are disconnected on your ATM-350 mic).

Small clip on mics all have to be condenser mics, because of the physical requirements of the small parts. Dynamic mics are all much larger since they basically share the same construction design as a speaker.

I would look for a different interface for recording or a mixer for personal monitoring. Your mic is worth more than that low end Zoom interface.
 
#39 ·
Thanks JC, that makes sense. My original goal with this setup was to have a wearable, battery-powered, self-contained personal monitoring rig. The only solutions I've found beside the Zoom tend to be pricey, like this one:

https://www.sounddevices.com/products/portable-audio-tools/mm-1

I guess another solution might be to use a separate portable phantom power box, and pass it through a portable headphone monitor.
 
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