Sax on the Web Forum banner

Interesting.. Selmer Seles Axos

28K views 46 replies 22 participants last post by  Grumps 
#1 ·
 
#2 ·
Dammit the link didn't work in the first post..

 
#6 ·
Me too!! :D
 
#4 ·
The Axos thus appears to differ from the Selmer Paris pro horns in the following ways:
  • Less hand work on tube (bells are machine-fabricated?)
  • No hand engraving?
  • Keywork manufactured elsewhere? (the biggie -- not addressed in the video)
  • No blue enamel on neck.
My impression from this video is that the SeleS Axos saxophone is more clearly being positioned as a "non-pro" horn (intermediate? advancing student?) than the SeleS Presence clarinet, which just seems like a less expensive professional instrument. The SeleS Prologue alto sax mouthpiece is being marketed as a student piece; wonder if it, or an S80, will ship with the Axos horn.
 
#9 ·
I agree that it has peaked my curiosity. However, it would be disingenuous of them to state that the sax is "manufactured" rather than "assembled" in the same factory if the keywork is made elsewhere. My hope is that they keywork is still manufactured in Mantes-la-Ville but with a greater reliance on automation and modern machinery... Although, I wouldn't be shocked if we find out otherwise.
 
#10 ·
The value engineers and accountants will destroy the reputation of a Business and Brand that has been world class since saxes were first popular - if that is the only way they can compete, then it's probably the slippery slope.....

Blowhard2
 
#15 ·
Milandro can probably comment more… but the fact that it says "Made In France" means that a certain percentage must be made there, I think.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
#16 ·
Milandro can probably comment more… but the fact that it says "Made In France" means that a certain percentage must be made there, I think.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
From what our Selmer rep told me, it's 100%. I hope it's true!
 
#17 ·
More info on the website... http://www.seles.fr/en/seles-saxophone-axos

This seems like a stripped down Series II. The horn looks like it has ribbed construction like the II and it would make sense to share one body tube design for multiple models for the sake of practicality and sound quality. The points of compromise for price seem to be the two-piece pressed bell (versus the standard one piece hammered), a new neck design (perhaps also cheapened), possibly outsourced keywork, and less intricate engraving than the post-Jubilee horns. There is engraving on the bell and body tube as well, interestingly.
 
#19 ·
Re: Interesting.. Selmer Seles Axos - Price

Helpfully, Kessler & Sons has posted the price for the Axos although the horn is not yet available. Here's where it stands compared to likely substitute choices. These are the normal street prices in the United States - no eBay specials - for standard lacquer models. Selmer and Yanagisawa prices are from Kessler's; Yamaha prices are from the Woodwind and Brasswind:

$2,919 Selmer USA AS42
$2,937 Yamaha YAS-62III
$3,235 Yanagisawa A-WO1
$4,000 Yamaha YAS-82ZII
$4,000 Yamaha YAS-875EX
$4,025 Yanagisawa A-WO2 (bronze)
$4,295 SeleS Axos
$4,325 Yanagisawa A-WO10
$4,975 Yanagisawa A-WO20 (bronze)
$5,759 Selmer Paris SA80 Series II Jubilee
$6,479 Selmer Paris SA80 Series III Jubilee

I don't discount the importance of the used saxophone market. All these manufacturers are competing against themselves to an extent, particularly Selmer Paris (I just purchased a used Series II in great condition for much less than any of the prices shown above). However, the Axos requires new buyers to succeed, so how will it fare among this field? There's probably a difference in market perception between an "entry-level Selmer" and a "student Selmer." Selmer USA tried to position the AS42 as the former; others here can judge the outcome of that maneuver. If the Axos sounds and feels almost like a Series II or III, it may earn "entry-level" pro status. But if it is deemed just another decent horn, albeit made in France, I'm not so sure.

Selmer Paris seems to be trying to prevent the SeleS sax from cannibalizing Selmer horn sales - trying perhaps too hard. The Axos webpage, downloadable brochure, and promotional video all avoid describing the Axos as a "professional" saxophone. In fact, the goal seems to be to contrast the Axos with the professional horns, e.g., "The
way in which the strategic part of the saxophone, the bore, is treated in our metal workshops is as rigorous as the treatment of the professional models." And Claude Delangle calls the Axos a good instrument for "young musicians and not-so-young musicians." Isn't that code for "students and amateurs"?
 
#20 ·
They priced it above the 875EX and the same as the top Yani? That's crazy for what is being positioned as an intermediate instrument. Wow.
 
#36 ·
#22 ·
If correct- I'm puzzled by the marketing strategy behind this horn- How is around $4000 dollars more affordable for students etc. and also why would I buy a supposedly more affordable (ie cheaper, inferior) horn from Selmer for that much when I can get a mint setup professional alto (even a selmer) for less.
The sound clip and explanation didn't impress me. Tell me its partly produced in Taiwan or China and costs $2500 and I would get it. The reviewer from Supertramp didn't bowl me over either saying its a 'good' sound. You gotta do better than that. I did enjoy the Mulligan and Desmond music however ;)
 
#23 ·
If correct- I'm puzzled by the marketing strategy behind this horn- How is around $4000 dollars more affordable for students etc. and also why would I buy a supposedly more affordable (ie cheaper, inferior) horn from Selmer for that much when I can get a mint setup professional alto (even a selmer) for less.
The sound clip and explanation didn't impress me. Tell me its partly produced in Taiwan or China and costs $2500 and I would get it.
Well, that's basically the AS42, except replace "partly" with "mostly." But I agree with you that, based on the prices I posted, the Axos sales strategy is hard to understand. (Maybe it makes more sense in markets other than the United States, e.g., Europe or Japan?) I suppose the hope is that customers will focus only on the price difference between the Axos and the pro Selmer Paris horns, while ignoring other top makes and the used market. Then a purchaser might conclude, "Hey, I'm getting a $2,000 discount!" Notice that SeleS instruments do retain the Henri Selmer Paris logo, and are promoted as "SeleS par Selmer" rather than just "SeleS." Obviously, though, this will be a hard sell with the SOTW crowd.
 
#25 ·
Good points. I think putting the selmer badge was a smart move by them but I think they are deluded if they think that the Selmer name association carries enough weight for people to buy a student selmer instead of a professional, well set up professional saxophone from the Japanese manufacturers at the same price.
 
#26 ·
Selmer Paris has always been very prone to attach their name on horns of different quality... I can't count how many cheap saxophone I've seen on sale as "Selmer" while they were something else (Conn-Selmer, Selmer USA, Prologue by Selmer etc etc).
This is no exception: it's a Seles horn, not a Selmer one. The Selmer Paris logo is there just to attract some potential buyer.

I chatted with a guy who recently visited the factory for work: Selmer Paris horns are made there from the start to the end (they even make the screws in-house, he told me). Seles clarinets (didn't talk about saxophones) are assembled at the factory.

It make sense to me: there's a market for good saxophones that are cheaper than a full fledged Selmer Paris. Mauriat comes to mind.
The final user could care or not about the screws made in Paris: if he doesn't he can save some money on an instrument that comes from a more global market.
 
#27 ·
But this is the first time that Henri Selmer Paris has put their name on any other horn. Regardless of all the other Selmer branded horns out there- they are not Selmer Paris.
Thats cool it makes sense to you. And you're right there is a 'market for good saxophones that are cheaper than a full fledged Selmer Paris'. So how does the $4000 price mark for an alto fall into the affordable category? No students I know can afford $4000. My point is I don't think there are many smart musicians out there who are interested in buying a student/intermediate/accepted as inferior/whatever saxophone using cheaper materials by ANY company (not just Selmer Paris) for the same price or more than a vintage or mint new professional Selmer Paris or a killer professional saxophone by another company.
Of course you are free to make your own opinion! :)
 
#28 ·
Cheaper doesn't mean affordable...
And I've seen nowhere that Seles instruments are made for the student or the intermediate market. They are -probably- good horns and I can see a rich market for them: there are dozens of threads here debating how good Taiwanese horns are. A lot of professionals are using brand new Mauriats or Cannonballs or similar brands. The same people will be interested in a horn that's 2000$ cheaper than a Ref54 and that offer a good alternative.

A list of prices have been published in this thread: Seles is priced to "disturb" brands like Yamaha and Yanagisawa that, sometimes, are prefered because they are cheaper. It does make sense, but it's not competing with Jupiter to share the students' market, that's for sure. And that's why it needs the "Selmer Paris" logo on the bell and not a general Selmer engraving.

Vintage is simply not in the equation because companies have to sell new horns, and the used instruments market is not relevant to them.

Until someone will be able to prove that Seles is a "student/intermediate/accepted as inferior/whatever" compared to other similarly priced brands your statement makes no sense. It's a marketing operation and only time will tell if it will be successful or not.

By the way: I don't know any person, professional or not, that could afford to buy a brand new Selmer light-hearted. Still, at Selmer, they are making new horns...
 
#29 ·
You make some good points but have you considered that the Yani's and Yanagisawas at this pricepoint are not considered by their own companies to be a cheaper or 'more affordable' level instrument? The Seles is. Selmer may try to be coy but its clear that the Axos is not designed to be a professional saxophone- why call it Seles not Henri Selmer Paris if it was?
I understand Selmer are pricing the Seles in the same bracket as the top horns of the other major competitors -but the fact is that these horns already compete with Selmer Paris, at a lower price, but are the top of the range for those companies.
I agree with you that until someone tries a Seles , noone knows how it will play, maybe it will play great - but it seems less expensive features have been noticed with its construction by other members.

My point was simple- I don't think these will sell well at over $4000 a unit.
Somewhere in its manufacture it has been cheapened from current HSP models, to cut costs to make the sax 'more affordable' for the consumer. The problem is when other companies are putting out their best saxes which superior materials for less.

My point before we got into a debate about what category this horn falls into - is that I personally cannot imagine many players I know buying this saxophone when there are so many other top of the range saxophones in the market at this price that Selmer Paris itself are struggling to compete with- and now they put their 'more affordable' (cheaper) cousin Seles up against the same saxes......hmm

The point I made about vintage saxes is in fact in the equation because we weren't exclusively talking about new horns- we were talking- at least I thought - about what people choose to buy with their money. There will always be new horns sold every year but only if they are good enough and maybe Seles will sound awesome, sell a lot and be successful. Who knows but my opinion is I don't think it will.
 
#31 ·
I do agree with you on one point: I don't think that it's a particularly clever marketing move and I don't think it will have a huge success. Yanagisawa and Yamaha are well consolidated brands and it's difficult to move the market with a new brand, despite the HSP logo on the bell.

I think that, at this point, it would be difficult for Selmer to reduce their horn price: manufacturing in France is expensive and many parts can be made in other places in the world at a much less expense. But if they were to outsource some parts of their flag horns many purist will probably say that "Selmer is now dead" and won't buy anymore.
Now they have a way to put a product in a market segment that they didn't cover before and if the bore is inherited from the SAII it won't be a dog of a horn (maybe I'm wrong, but the tube should be the same also for series III, and reference models).

Trumpet players are all the rage for a single-piece hammered bell (all of their sound come from there). Still some boutique makers do adopt a two pieces construction. On a saxophone it would probably make no sonic difference at all.

I think that, at Selmer, they don't want you to think about Seles as a "small brother": a good opportunity for them to increase their cash flow is to make it as good as any other professional horn in the price range and let the real HSP to become a premium boutique instrument that not anyone could afford (think about Lamborghini and Audi)
 
#30 ·
Saw one in person this week at the Mid-West show. Interestingly, the model number is 52AXOS. I talked about it briefly with my former Selmer reps, but unfortunately did not get a chance to play the horn, as I had to get back to my booth.

I can confirm that it is definitely laser engraved, and not as extensively as a Series II or III. If I had to guess; Series II bore with less handwork and keywork from another factory. But that is a guess, not gospel.
 
#32 ·
The Axos seems like a mess from a branding/positioning standpoint. If they're tip-toeing around whether it's a professional horn, I guess it's an intermediate model? How are buyers supposed to be excited about spending $4300 on a sort-of pro horn, which is more than a handcrafted professional Yanagisawa?

They're stuck in this no-mans land with marketing this thing. It's sort of Selmer Paris, but sort of not (that neck logo almost looks like Selmer USA).

I think they should just flat-out call it Selmer Paris, none of this Seles business if it's still made in the Selmer factory there. Call it an entry-level professional horn.

On another note, why are Jubilee horns so pricey? They seem to play almost the same as a regular Series II.
 
#33 ·
Seles horns are not made at the Paris factory, hence it would be another marketing nightmare to brand them Selmer Paris and then try to communicate to the customers why some horns are almost twice the price while sharing most of the important parts of the instrument :)

As I said, they are in a difficult position anyway: if it's an intermediate horn is a suicide because it won't be able to compete with other intermediate horns, but then how to market a professional horn without cannibalizing the sales of the premium brand?

For me it's priced to compete with professional horns and therefore it should be a professional horn. Still it will be difficult for Selmer to admit that they can make professional horns that area as good as the SA II at a more reasonable price if they outsource some of the manufacturing.
 
#39 ·
I agree with you guys. I don't understand the marketing position of Selmer for this new sax, which I'm sure is good !
Why make a semi-pro horn ? When one thinks about Selmer, it's about quality and top notch instruments. I could understant the existence of the Axos as a top notch student horn, just as the Yas-23 was. And at its price too. But most semi-pro makers don't have a professionnal handmade range (Mauriat, System54...). So logically, making a quality student sax by Selmer would be a good idea, and would earn the company a nice wealth to spend in the making of even better pro saxes.
But making a semi-pro horn, with a bad commercial, in one finish (most intermediate saxes have multiples funny finishes, the fun being a main part of buying them), at a high price, I don't think they will sell it :(

I called the showroom last week and no sax was available for a try. Living near "la rue de la fontaine au Roi", i'll check it out again next week, and maybe will come back with some sound :)

I think Seles will be as good as a top-notch taïwanese sax like Mauriat, but the advertising is not very appealing ...
 
#40 ·
Why make a semi-pro horn ? When one thinks about Selmer, it's about quality and top notch instruments.
Where does it say that this is a "semi pro" horn?

But most semi-pro makers don't have a professionnal handmade range (Mauriat, System54...).
I don't get what is semi professional about P.Mauriat or System54 saxophones. Also I don't see how you can equate being hand made with a horn being professional, especially seeing as a lot of the very cheap Chinese horns are probably more "hand made" than a lot of top of the range instruments such as those from yamaha which I believe are made with a highly automated process.
 
#41 ·
Let's just keep in mind that Selmer is struggling for it's margin/survival. All the gimmicks they added to the well born SA-II and S-III series with "Jubilee" and so-on versions is purely cash generation. The problem for them is that they cannot "market-price" their horns like those sourcing somewhere in obscure asian suburbs. Selmer Paris pays french wages and benefits in Euro, facilities near Paris, etc... This all costs REAL money. The Seles move is obviously a first step towards "mixed" sourcing to recover margin. Remember, Keilwerth did the same in cooperation with Amati and later on KHS. It didn't save them.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying it is the best thing Selmer did in history. The question should rather be: what else can they do to stay afloat ?
 
#45 ·
Perhaps Selmer is staking out this mid-level so that they can raise prices on the full-pro horns. Maybe introduce new top-of-the-line models that try to capture the $10-$15k market for 5 digit Mark VI tenors.

Maybe the strategy is to let Yamaha and Yani and Seles take the advanced intermediate through semi-pro market and save Selmer-Paris for an almost luxury level.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top