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Does a Dolnet sound like a Selmer?

13K views 18 replies 11 participants last post by  birdmaniac 
#1 ·
I have been reading lately on this site and others about how Dolnet and Buffet horns represent the best values on the market today--how they can give you that French Selmeresque sound for a lot less than a Mark VI, for example. But how true is that, and which one of these horns comes closest to the classic Selmer Mark VI sound (i.e., a dark, centered sound, but with plenty of projection)? I'll start with the Buffets, specifically, their flagship model, the SDA (Super Dynaction). I've read some reports that these sound like Selmers, but others that describe their sound as somewhere between a Super Balanced Action and a Conn 10M. If that's true, then their sound would seem to be more spread (like a 10M) than the focused sound of a Mark VI. And what about the intonation on a Buffet compared to a Mark VI? I've heard that it's about the same, though maybe not as good on average as the Selmers. I know that the keywork on an SDA is quite different from a VI, so I won't bother asking about that.

But turning to Dolnets--specifically, their flagship model, the Bel Air--I have read some reports that liken their sound to the Buffet SDA, but others that say they sound more like Selmers--specifically, that they have more of that focused Selmer sound than the Buffets, and also more projection than the Buffets (i.e., like the Selmers). I have also heard that the Dolnets have more intonation problems on average than both Buffets or Selmers. Lastly, I have read that Dolnets have lighter, faster keywork than the Buffets (again, more like a Selmer).

So in a nutshell, does a Dolnet sound more like a Mark VI than does a Buffet SDA?

Basically, I am in the market to acquire one of these horns before the prices go too high--and I want to come as close as a I can to the sound of their former competitor--the Stradivarius of Saxes--the vaunted Mark VI itself. Thanks in advance for your input.
 
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#2 ·
I Don't have a ton of experience with selmers but I did own two dolnets for a while. Nice horns. The intonation, at least on the ones I had, were not as good as you would expect on a Selmer or Buffet. very workable, but not perfect. I had to put crescent in the lower tone holes to get it just right. others have said the intonation on theirs were dead on. I'm sure depends on the particular horn/player/setup.

I always hear that dolnets are more of a classical horn but I disagree at least with the belair. The feel and sound to me was closer to vintage american horns than typical french horns. Others may disagree. Very suited to jazz or R&B/rock and roll IMO. Plus they have those cool, funky keyguards. Well worth checking into because the prices are still relatively low for a good pro horn.
 
#4 ·
:) Hi folks,

As someone who's already on the market and has just acquired a Dolnet (Tenor M70), I must say it's always difficult to have a good, reliable opinion on these relatively rare horns (compared with brands like Selmer) before you
make your own. And for the money, the risk is not too big. But you see a lot of them that certainly need a good deal of work. Relying on some expert judgements, we have pretty different views outhere, (and once again, the caveat is that it so much depends on the player/set up AND MODEL : belair, royal jazz, M70 but the latter is the rarest of all...) : from the saxpics site for Dolnet that has mainly been written by someone deeply enthralled with those horns to the not-always-so-enthusiastic comments by reputable sax dealers (world wide sax, junkdude) : basically nicely-made horns, good bargain, interesting, with lots of features...Yet Steve at WWS says they have the Selmer-like focused sound (about a belair) and saxpics I think somewhere writes that the M70 could give the VI a run for the money. We would need some more comparative studies from people who have extensively played both Selmer and Dolnet, and I doubt they are many. But it seems that given the outrageous rates at which Mark VI go for, I think they can certainly compete fairly well !!! The ones I've tried so far were not representative of the best Dolnet models (the Studium, most likely a student saxophone as the name indicates), but my M70 has just landed and once I get a decent mouthpiece and reeds, I'll be able to say something about it. Just one big problem for comparison, the only Selmer I ever tried were (Tenor and alto) were S80 and the only VI played was a stuffy, out-of adjustment baritone. The discussion goes on...

Cheers.

Yohann
 
#6 ·
The M70 is definitely the coolest of the dolnets, at least from a visual standpoint, with the offset bell and all. If memory seves me correct, the M70 has a smaller bore than the belairs? I've never played one but maybe thats the difference. Does a smaller bore = more focused sound?

I'm not sure it really matters. When i had both of mine I recorded some comparison samples between a silverplated Conn (tranny stencil) a silverplated Hohner, and the two laquered dolnets (one was a stencil), I used two different mouthpieces on each horn, attempting to determin which to keep and which to sell based on the sound. All the horns had selmer style plastic resos except the hohner which had coned resos. The sounds really didn't change too much in any combination. I think mainly because the same dude was blowing through them all. I pretty much sounded like myself. the hohner was the only one that had a distinctly different sound. it was brighter. I wound up keeping the Dolnets cuz they looked cool.

My point is, you will sound basically like yourself on most any horn you play. I think if you have a concept in your head and strive to create in on the horn you will eventually acheive it. Or darn close. if you see a chance to score a Dolnet for a good price I don't think you'll be dissapointed in the result and you wont have to mortgage the farm to buy it. I bought my Dolnet for $360.00 and the stencil for $150.00
 
#7 ·
I agree on this, beside good adjustment, the dude is what counts most soundwise, then the mouthpiece and reed, pads and finally what remains of the horn body and material/bore size etc. No doubt this neverending quest for the horn is somewhat distracting us from spending more time on playing. I guess we're also collectors of old ladies...but there's still a couple of things that matter apart from their vintage beauty : the ergonomics of different models (and here we can probably make futher comparison of Dolnet and Selmer models), the last 3-5-7 % (?) of sound that is dependent on the horn itself (but this is also valid for individual horns of the same make and model...damn) given the kind of musical spirit you want to achieve, and most of all the big question of why it is not indispensible to spend the big bucks on vintage Selmer...Personnally, I don't have this kind of money and I must say that I don't really understand the vintage selmer madness. Will the mark VI cost as much as a Stradivarius in 200 years? Let me get back to you after this week end when I have had time to find a mouthpiece for the M70...

Yohann
 
#8 ·
Yeah, I know--it's funny how many of the technical discussions on this Forum often end up with someone saying something to that effect--that the horn is just a small part of your sound (i.e. "Charlie Parker sounded the same on a plastic sax. etc."). I'm aware of this (and the people who bring it up always sound condescending to an extent whether they realize or not), but that is not the kind of thing I use this forum for. If I want help with my sound, I'll take some music lessons from a professional, etc. I, like many others on here, use it for technical info that I use to make buying decisions, whether we're talking saxes, mouthpieces, whatever. That's the beauty of online forums for any subject, whether it's exotic pet rats, or whatever--that we can tap each other's minds for knowledge that we do not yet possess (you have played a Dolnet, I have not). This kind of knowledge--though never as good as actually being able to play-test a sax or mouthpiece--is better than nothing! ;)

But I'm not offended by it. Actually, it's kind of amusing that soooo many technical threads on here will end up with someone saying that the horn doesn't matter--that they need to get a sound "concept" before they can sound a certain way. Actually, I saw something about that what-percentage-is-the-horn chart myself (maybe on Jason Dumars' site a few years back), and I actually disagree with it to a certain extent. I'm not a pro by any means, but I have played all my life (35 years of age), and when I listen to Cannonball's recordings I can tell when he's playing on his original silver-neck Super 20, and when he's on a Mark VI (he switched to a Selmer later in his career). The horns are just very different in sound and design--the Super 20's are that much brighter than the darker Selmers. Same thing with Dexter whe he switched from a Conn to a VI.

But no offense, man. I have been wanting to say something about this trend for a while, but now that's it's happened again, I just had to. :lol: .

Let us know how you like your new M70.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Buffet Tenor

I bought a 1952 Buffet Dynaction tenor, the model before the Super Dynaction. It easily competes with a Selmer SBA and a VI. It is a beautiful horn that I believe are grossly undervalued. Intonation about the same as a VI. It is free blowing and with a spread sound but not as much as a Conn. More like an SBA but with less core. It is a dark smokey ballads horn on a bilger silver*, dark rovner lig. On a Link metal 6* it can get into being a Coltrane type or an edgy rock sax. Great classicial tone. Using a Fibercell medium it is one of the most flexable tones to shade. It does not have that ring to it that I think only Conns 10m/6m and Mark vi's have. I'm an alto player that wanted a vi tenor and bought my Buffet as a way of saving the money and having a good horn at the same time. I have stoped saving for the vi. For me this horn is a great horn. I would only consider now a 10m or a great SBA but I will never shell out the selmer $ being an alto player first. It is VERY easy to play and very forgiving, like a conn. VI's really have a bit of pressure.

I have not tried a Dolnet, my Buffet was about $1400.00 USD. I think they are easily worth $5000.00 but the market does not demand those pieces. Recently I tried a Reference 54, Yamaha 82Z. and a Keilwerth pro tenor. My Buffet blew them all away.

The projection is not like a vi. Round tone very dark and warm. Check out saxpics the Buffet section and see what he says about Dynactions and how they compare to vi's.
 
#10 ·
Hey,

Don't misread me. I did not say the horn does not matter (depending on what you include in it : pads, felts, adjustment, etc : My king super 20 baritone does not sound the same with its x-tra large metal-domed hollywood resos and goatskin pads than with another set up). I do think there's a core sound to a sax, though it is residual and varies among horns of the same model and make. I guess this is clear for Mark Vis as for many other saxes that have been produced over a long period of time with sometime substantial change in the production line. I once had a Zephyr from 1938 and compared it with one from 1948 and even if i could find similarities in the sound and ergonomics, it was also very different. This has to be acknowledged before we make generalizations about a particular model. Yet, true, as someone who started out on the vintage market by trading his Custom yamaha for the 1938 king Zephyr, I would never say they sounded the same, even with the same berg mouthpiece that I used ! And I think I could describe fairly well the differences. So, no offense meant, I still dig those discussion forums as well and I will tell you soon how the Dolnet compares to the King and yam I know !!!

Cheers.

Yohann :D
 
#11 ·
My dolnet nickelplated bel air alto is almost as good as a friend's early silver MkVI: intonation and sound versatility are a hint behind, the difference is a marginal one though. My silver dolnet soprano (I own 2, second one is nickelplated,=for sale) is just terrific (would not swap for yani). Also own cartier stencil "artist" tenor (great sound).
 
#12 ·
I just received a Dolnet BelAir tenor and to me the sound is like a cross between a vintage Buescher and a King Super 20. Very good intonation and big clear, open tone, bright and a great horn for jazz, soul or rock. I don't think I would find this to be the best horn for classical......then again I don't play classical saxophone. Ergonomics are not as good as a more modern horn but as good or better than most vintage saxes are concerned IMO.
 
#17 ·
I just received a Dolnet BelAir tenor and to me the sound is like a cross between a vintage Buescher and a King Super 20.
I'm with you on this Mark R. Definitely not Selmer like but very French in the upper harmonics department. If I had to draw a comparison from experience I have to say it sounds so much like a King Zephyr. Of the couple Z's I owned and the many I've tried, this horn is really close to that tone. It has more power and is much easier for me to play in tune. Great for R&B....
 
#13 ·
Also forgot to answer the original posting question. To me no, it does not sound like a Selmer. The Selmer has a more complex overtone/harmonics in the tone core to it than the Dolnet. The Dolnet has a more clear...almost vintage American horn sound.....I would imagine being French maybe closer to what a SML without rolled tone holes or a Buffet sounds like......been a while but if I recall it is fairly similar in tone to a Buffet SDA from what I remember.
 
#15 ·
How do you do. I'm a noob, and have a limited amount to offer, as I have not tried a Selmer Mk VI.

I have, however had a Dolnet M70 for years. I got it very cheap and battered and with a variety of German reed holder cards and other crap lurking at the bottom of the box, so I suppose some foreign Johnnie brought it to England. (I also scored a matching hexagon 49xxxx alto a year or two back.)

I found the tenor very limited in dynamics, flat in the low register and sharp upstairs. Never could get it to go loud. The mouthpiece that came with it was an old (I guess - green hint to it) rubber Meyer R4, which I now know to have a very close facing. (This was bought on a whim. I was young, and didn't know any better...) It did have a light and fast action even to a clarinet player. If I have any complaint, it would be the low B-flat key. It's one of the very far away ones you have to drop a shoulder and reach all the way down for.

Playing with concert and Big Bands, I had to find some volume, and got a rubber Link 7, which was better. Brief flirtation with a squeaky horror of a 6-star metal Link Tonemaster, but I settled on the rubber Link, which was reliable, solid, but very boring. The sound was very rounded off. I don't know where the "Tone Edge" mentioned on the box was.

Next came a £20 Morgan Protone. One facing, take it or leave it. Much better. Fixed the tuning too. Nice edge to it. Exactly what you'd expect from The Main Man.

I will now stop wasting my money on buying more mouthpieces, because I've just acquired a Morgan Excalibur 5EL. This is just a whole different league. Tuning is fine, there is a nice edge to the sound, and it can produce this big chocolate tidal wave of sound in any quantity you care to order without going for an aneurism. Wonderful rich tone and easy control right down to pppp as well. It's like Mr Morgan knew exactly what I was after.

I have to declare an interest / bias here. I use Morgan RM10s on my clarinets. They are very special too.

G
 
#18 ·
Hi,

I would say that may Dolnet soprano had a nice tone but was not in tune in higher register (so are Mark 6 sop). This is not the case with modern sop (Keilwerth, Yani, yamaha...) or some vintage sop like Conn (never tried one though) or Kohlert (I have one that is very much in tune).
 
#19 ·
I've just bought a two-tone Dolnet Bel Air tenor on eBay and I still can't believe how good it plays. I first thought that the excitation for the new purchase could make me feel this sax so good sounding, but the more I play it the better I like it. I can't really say if it can be comparised to a Mark VI tenor because I don't have one, but I recall that I had the same impressions when I used to play a 72xxx Mark VI many years ago.
What I am sure of is that this Dolnet plays far better than my Super Action II: more well balanced and focused sound, a better singing quality and a similar good intonation. I also feel comfortable with its keywork.
Now I'll start looking for a similar Dolnet alto!
 
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