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solder bell to bow??

14K views 98 replies 22 participants last post by  dzve 
#1 ·
Merits to soldering the bell to bow on my tenor? Pros/cons?
 
#7 ·
Ah I forgot to mention that a common con is that if the tech messes it up it can really make the lacquer look bad... but if they are experienced at it there should be no cosmetic damage. :)
 
#10 ·
Well that's one aspect of it nitrosax, but there is also the possibility that someone could not solder the bell all the way around. in other words there could still be gaps between the bell and bow if the solder is not made to flow properly. I hope that helps. :)
 
#13 ·
Some people believe it increases a saxophones ability to resonate, but no t all people

It prevents accidental twisting of the bow from the bell
It helps keep regulations a fraction better on the B,Bb keys

It will likely damage all the lacquer around the join, rare to see one not damaged when this has been done
Its messy for the next person who may need to take the bell off, for taking body dents out
 
#15 ·
The bell to bow is soldered. It's the bow to body join that is detachable. Some people think the seal is better if it is soldered. Mel Martin had his soldered when it was made.
I think with modern glues etc that the seal is good and being able to take the joint apart is an advantage if the horn needs repairing.
 
#18 ·
Randy Jones soldered the bow-to-body joint of my Ref 36, as part of setting it up, after I had played it for about 5 years. No solder damage.

Matt Stohrer soldered the similar joint of my Borgani, when it was overhauled.

I'm a believer.
 
#19 ·
The only scary bit with a series II is the way they joined 'em at the factory. The early ones had a small rubber gasket at the joint (yet another solution in search of a problem), because of this there's a ton of extra space involved. The better the fit of the two parts the less heat and solder needed to join them with a good air-tight seal. It'll work well when done, but that gap will just make it that much harder to avoid damaging the lacquer.
 
#20 ·
I would like to point out that if you use the right equipment and have experience you will not damage the lacquer. We do this procedure all the time at our shop and its never been a problem. I also due this to all of my personal horns. :)
 
#22 ·
Wow thats such a huge statement.

And I soooooo dis-agree.

Yes you can be lucky and solder a bell into place with very little damage to the lacquer, but most times it will burn somewhere or show sanding marks, or curl, or dis-colour,

The trick for good techs, is knowing how to blend that area back in, if its a plated instrument different story, if its not plated and simply lacquered, then sorry I dis-agree, how are you protecting the area of solder after its been soldered, are you re-lacquering, wolla theres a change to the lacquer, if your not relaquering, then how are you preventing corrosion from occuring from the solder work, your reply leaves so much in question

First to make solder stick, you need to remove lacquer from the surface, so that means the area needs to be sanded clean, theres your fist bit of lacquer damage, then you need to add flux, that is corrosive, that eats lacquer as well, so theres some more damage, then you get to solder the two joints together at a temp of around 170 degrees celcius ""ish"", so that means the corners of the sanded lacquer will now curl up, so thats more lacquer damage,

To this we are not even taking into consideration what type of lacquer is in play, is it acrylic, is it nitro, is it poly, is it an enamel, is it a urethane, is it a blend like acrylic urethane, there are so many variations....

So again I dis-agree with your statement, ""with experience and equipment you will not damage the lacquer"", and yes I have equipment and experience way more than you could possibly envision.

Please note there is also a difference between, sweating a bell that is already soldered on ""off"" and then back on, and actually soldering a bell on that has never been soldered on before

Experience and knowledge minimises the damage, but there will always be damage of some form
 
#21 ·
I would also like to add that virtually every saxophone that was made pre 1960's was soldered in this fashion. I think it may be more than a coincidence that these sought after vintage horns have such great resonance. But hey those are just my thoughts on the matter.
 
#29 ·
Simso: I am not one to argue via public forums so I won't in this case. I believe you have very valid points about having to sand on the inside and the outside so that the solder will flow properly. So I suppose that the lacquer that is non visible, ie. under the bow band. However if you sand carefully once the band is back on top there should be no signs of damage. I am just wondering what type of torch you use to solder that it causes this lacquer to curl and burn. With the torches we use you can tone down the flame so it does not burn or discolour the lacquer. As a newcomer to the field it is not my intention to step on the toes, if you will, of established technicians such as yourself. I just want to make it very clear that I have the utmost respect for people who devote their lives to our craft of repair and restoration. :)
 
#70 ·
As a newcomer to the field it is not my intention to step on the toes....
You HAVE gone quite a ways in making some very bold statements, though.

I would like to point out that if you use the right equipment and have experience you will not damage the lacquer. We do this procedure all the time at our shop and its never been a problem. I also due this to all of my personal horns. :)
Initially it appeared under the guise of one who was professionally established, yet later on you revealed that you are a newcomer and 'our shop' refers to the shop belonging to another, more experienced tech. Simso's point was that perhaps you should reconsider some of your bold and, honestly, overreaching comments which you back up by "what you have gleaned from others".

Hey Simso, if you are calling into question what experience I can and cannot envision than you are doubting my teachers and colleagues who I have learned from and watched in person. So you are calling into question the technique of my Boss and Mentor Aaron Barnard of Barnard Instrument Repair and his teacher Randy Jones of Tenor Madness.
Then you take personally Simso's response which challenges your statement and intimation that lacquer damage will only result if the tech had done it "wrong". And posit that techs in N. America or AU use different kinds of torches than elsewhere ???

I believe Simso's initial comment could have been simply boiled down to this: sometimes, lacquer will discolour or burn BEFORE the solder gets to a temperature where it can properly do its stuff. That such a comment/position is debatable to you is sorta odd, IMHO.

Personally, I doubt very greatly that any tech is capable of doing a complete bow resolder without scorching any lacquer 100% of the time...or even 80% or 75% of the time.

I find some of the boldness of your commentary, and your subsequent defenses thereof ... all a bit interesting, both semantically and in intent.
Perhaps just a matter of tempering one's comments a bit...something for future consideration.

It's cool that you have an exciting opportunity to learn from good sources, but you have had the tendency in this thread, at least, to draw some very broad conclusions & speak a bit beyond your own years of experience, is all....

So, to the OP I would reiterate my comment on page 1: if someone told you they could do that job and guarantee there will be absolutely NO aesthetic damage to the lacquer at all....that would be a bit dubious in my book. Thus...if you intend on having it done ~ expect the possibility that there will be some lacquer loss or other effect on the finish and aesthetics in that area, which will have to be dealt with as best it can.
 
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