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A way around the double socket?

7K views 38 replies 14 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 ·
I have been speaking with a well respected instrument maker about making a custom attachment for my zephyr. Since double socket necks for Kings are so hard to come by, I asked this person if they could make me a double socket to single socket removable "plug" for the top of my sax, with a certain bore to fit say, a single socket king, yamaha or selmer neck. What are your thoughts on this?

I was thinking the slight extra length would be the main issue, since there needs to be an extra screw above the height of the body. I am not sure this will be an issue as like a lot of Zephyrs; mine plays a quatre tone sharp when the mp is in a good position on the cork.
 
#7 ·
I am not quite sure that I understand.

You want a removable " adapter".

Even if this could be done, which I doubt.

Wouldn't the adapter lengthen the receiver hence throwing intonation of you horn haywire? You might think that lengthening this at the neck level might improve your general intonation and it even might, but in a limited area of your saxophone, but surely NOT on the whole range.

If you, on the other end , would REPLACE the receiver and the tenon on your horn with a single socket arrangement, Bruce Bailey has said it already you would seriously damage the value of your horn.

Besides, you have no way to know, beforehand that the neck that you choose would cure the intonation problems.

I appreciate that sometimes while playing a horn like yours, a player finds that this design is not particularly suited to using it with a modern mouthpiece and that you have to pull the mouthpiece to the very end of the neck or that the mouthpiece might have a different taper on the shank than the end portion of the neck and feel very wobbly.

If this is your problem there are other solutions mostly involving some mouthpiece choice or modifications or even a simple, thicker cork tapered in a suitable way.

However, next to changing the mouthpiece (to a longer and with a larger volume one perhaps?) I would consider changing your embouchure.

I see a fair bit of vintage horns and often when going to a horn of a completely different design bringing with me my usual mouthpiece there are initial intonation quirks.

These are produced by the disassociation between muscular memory of your embouchure with the ear-brain connection. In other words, you are not yet used to the new horn that you are playing and your brain is till playing another horn when you jump to this one.

This is a bit like when you swap between alto-tenor-soprano and the main reason why sopranos, for example, have a bad press concerning intonation, with people who play the soprano only occasionally.

Your body has muscular memory which needs to adapt and the ear will tell your embouchure , but takes time, that you need to relax it bringing the pitch much lower than what it is.

Than there is another problem which is hinted by the following comment.

The tenon size of horn A would not be the tenon size of horn be, it might but it is not often so.



I don't know where you live, but flutes are not all the same size over here.

A German made flute will have a very different size of an American made one.
 
#4 ·
I never said better! My current neck was pulled down at some point and repaired. This is not something that I need done, just thought that getting one made will give me some options to try out some different necks.
 
#5 ·
It would involve cutting the top of the body or unsoldering some of the body and fitting a standard tenon on it. I would not do it as it will devalue the horn by hundreds and may not solve any issues.I would first search out a King neck or go to a custom neck maker and have something new made. You can always have an existing neck unsoldered and have the new neck use your existing parts.
 
#6 ·
The idea is that it would be like an endplug, that you can slip a single socket neck into. The plug would be removable, attached just like the base of a regular double socket neck. Nothing permanent.
 
#8 ·
Mmm good points Milandro, I will wait for this guy to get back to me. If it doesnt cost too much for the attachment I described to be made I might still grab it just to give it a shot. Like I said my zephyr plays absolutely fantastic.. too good actually because it was just supposed to be short term thing, a few years, but I think I want to keep it now. I just thought it might be a good idea... but I think I may be wrong... we will see.
 
#9 ·
I'm pretty sure that this horn has no major intonation issues as I once owned it.
The neck has been pulled down and was split on both sides, but is now at correct or very close to angle and splits have been soldered.
When I owned this horn I also had two other Zephyrs a 48 and a 51 as well as a 61 Super 20.
I would often interchange the three necks between horns and although the tone of the horns changed with the different necks, the intonation was always excellent.
One thing I did notice was that the neck that Aussie is referring to had a brighter tone than the others, whether this was influenced by the damage I do not know.
I'd keep looking for another D/S Zephyr neck or if finances allow you could contact Gloger about a replacement neck.
Milandro has some experience with the Gloger S20 necks from memory.
Keep your eyes out for a beater horn with a decent neck.
That Zephyr is what I would describe as a Rock n Roll horn with a brightish core to it.
And pretty loud from memory.
 
#10 ·
I do have experience with the Gloger silver neck that Karsten made for me and that now is owned by Brasscane.

It is a considerable expense to have one made and might involve a 6 months wait.

In my opinion this is only worth doing if your neck is irreparably damaged or missing (and if the horn is worth a pretty penny because at more or less than 1000$ this cheap !)

Anyway I also have experience of several Zephyrs which I bought and sold, and I am absolutely positive that they could produce exactly the kind of problem that I’ve described and not because of any damage or faulty intonation but because the player isn’t used to this kind of horn.
 
#11 ·
milandro, the inside diameter of the barrel of the flute is not the diameter of the bore, but rather the bore plus the gauge of the tubing (which can vary). My flute's headjoint was crafted in Cologne and fits my Boston made flute. Are you really so sure that the your flutes have different bores?
 
#12 ·
I am sure that there are different sizes of headjoint and that they are not necessarily interchangeable without adapting them, in particular Armstrong headjoints seem to be smaller than anything else
your modern made German one might fit but older ones have sizes all over the place

Yep...

Here's some headjoint sizes that probably indicate differences in overall bore:

Ferree's Tools Inc. flute tenon sleeve sizes:

.777" Armstrong head
.785 Gemeinhardt head & foot, Yamaha foot, older Haynes
.786" Blessing foot
.787" Bundy head
.788" Blessing head
.792" Bundy foot, Artley foot
.794" Artley head
Here a chart that clearly shows variation in sizes

http://goferjoe.bygones.biz/headsize.htm
 
#13 ·
Yeah B Flat I love the horn. That is one thing I am trying to keep clear, just exploring options. I lent it to a local professional sax player and he agreed it played very sharp, had to use a business card to get enough length to play in tune. I didnt find it THAT bad though, but I still play right on the end of the cork.

Just looking at options, that is all. No problems, everything is good here.
 
#16 ·
I concur with the above comments ~ a repaired neck is nothing to bum out about unless, for some reason, there is something going haywire on the horn (leaks, squeaks, bad intonation, gurgles, etc).

As Milandro said, and the OP as well.....any sort of insertable/removable apparatus would mess with the bore at a very critical point of the horn...and it MAY also end up lengthening the distance from end of neck to body (but perhaps it very well CAN be designed so as not to do this at all, or minimally, i.e. no more than perhaps 1/8" length increase).

As Bruce said, if the neck is gone and you just wanna have a nice King neck in a nice King horn, then you could go and replace the receiver with a standard socket. But that would devalue the horn (although if you ever sold it, do remember to keep the original receiver with it). I would not hesitate suggesting this to someone if they bought a neckless horn which takes a double-socket neck, since it's only about a $120 job or so....but since this isn't the case here....

So...possible to make, yes....but having a tech who is uber-good at these sorta things whip up a prototype would likely cost at least $200...probably well more. So, again, if the original neck performs fine....just be happy with the horn and enjoy....
 
#17 ·
Well my main problem was that this horn was just supposed to be for a few years to get me through uni, but I like it so much.. I was thinking I might keep it longer! Which is why I was looking into different neck options, for the future. I think what I will do is wait around for a DS king neck to show up on the interwebs. And if I dont find a decent neck in a few years I might even look into one of those Gloger necks.
 
#19 ·
Or if you like it so much, maybe consider the possibility that changing necks isn't really going to make it better.

While I'm here offering the above useless advice, may as well say, I never noticed any mouthpiece dependency with my mid '30s Zephyr tenor. The mouthpieces I've tried with it have all been fairly wide tip openings, but never heard of anyone noticing any effect there on intonation.
 
#20 ·
As I recall, smaller chamber mpcs, play much better on the SML-ish necks from the Eastlake horns than on the earlier necks.


They are a bit longer, noticeably brighter and will improve intonation. Usually they will drop onto a single socket or can be easily fitted to a double socket King.
 
#21 ·
When Karsten Gloger started making his necks, he was providing necks that were ( as exact as he could make) a reproduction of the necks which the neck had to replace.

At that time that’s what he thought he should do and collected plenty of measurements of neck curves and diameters to achieve exactly that. He was warning customers to not expect miracles and he was saying back then that the neck could provide at best more projection (that’s what he told me).

Later on clients have asked him to fashion necks for them with one or more different parameters compared to the original that they sought to replace, altering the design rather than making a reproduction.

He did that because the customer might be crazy but is always right, in as much as he wants what he wants and, though often unwittingly, not always what he needs.

This, if you ask me, is an incredibly erratic thing with the potential of creating many more problems that it could ever solve.

I strongly recommend you don’t enter the realm of attempting to solve a problem that you ( pardon my honest words) don’t even understand well ( what is causing the problem? You, the mouthpiece, the neck, the design of the horn?) with a stochastic method ( a method based on trying, and 99,9% of the times erring , with a process only left to mere chance, another neck design and “ see “ what happens!).

If you do this it will drain your bank account and solve nothing.

My advise is to try some different mouthpieces ( can try large and short or thin and long ) but stay with each at least two weeks, after placing it on the horn in the best position, forget the tuner, and play and play.

Give time to your body to find the right embouchure for the piece on the present neck. If after two weeks you don’t find that you can play move to another type ( go first at the extremes to see in which direction you need to go).

Maybe you can find the mouthpiece this way. This too is a stochastic process but you have one variable ( the mouthpiece) and try to eliminate it by analysis.

Besides you can easily acquire mouthpieces and re sell them or borrow them and give them back.

If, you don’t reach any satisfactory result......sell the horn and live with the consequences, life is too short.
 
#22 ·
I just want to stress that I love the horn. I don't have any problems with it, it is just I am now planning on keeping it for a lot longer than I expected. Which is why I was looking into replacing the neck if I get the chance, since the current one looks a rather horrid. But as B Flat said, it plays fine. For what I paid for it I was expecting a lot less, but it is a brilliant horn with a great sound that just happens to have a frankenneck.
 
#24 ·
......... it plays fine. For what I paid for it I was expecting a lot less, but it is a brilliant horn with a great sound .........
I don't understand this statement but it is your statement.

I am in no doubt that you weren't sold a bad horn but you complain about its intonation. Intonation is something that you have on any given horn, the player makes the sound more than any saxophone does.

Two different players can play the same horn and one has intonation issues while the other hasn't

Mouthpieces only aid the player who shapes the intonation and the tone by means of his embouchure.

By changing the mouthpiece you MIGHT find one which would help you with intonation.

In case you don't eihter live with a horn that is not in tune when played by you OR take your losses and remove THIS horn from YOUR life.
 
#23 ·
It's the neck which creates the sound, or so Steve Goodson maintains (and Steve wouldn't lie, would he?). If the alto has a great tone, keep the neck. The most you should do to it is get it replated or even just relacquered, as a cosmetic exercise. By all means seek out a second King neck from the same era, or even a modern purpose-built replacement. but DO NOT MESS with either the existing neck or the double socket. That way Madness lies.
 
#31 ·
By all means seek out a second King neck from the same era, or even a modern purpose-built replacement. but DO NOT MESS with either the existing neck or the double socket. That way Madness lies.
Yes, I agree...I will add the only thing which you might consider is having the neck re-patched (although even as I write this I doubt my own advice, but anyways....).

I am assuming the patches are lozenges on the outside. There ARE techs who cal repair splits/cracks in the neck without an obvious exterior patch job, and maintain a nice smooth and uninterrupted interior surface. When all is said and done, actually make it LOOK like a neck which was never damaged.

But, again....I dunno if that'd make it play any better than it does NOW, and it would run a good $300 probably (maybe more in AU)...so it begins to approach the cost of actually buying an original (vintage) replacement.....
 
#27 ·
The reason why I decided to upgrade to a Gloger neck was that my Super 20's neck had once had a octavoice pick-up installed (Ah! The Seventies! foolish times!) and it was taken out and repaired at some point in time before I acquired it.

Also the tenon was a little loose on the socket and that disturbed me a bit because I though that some problems could arise from tightening the neck screw too much....but really the real reason why I wanted it was that my horn didn't have a Silver neck and I wanted one!
This is eerily similar to the reason why I was considering replacing the neck. Except instead of an octavoice installation it was pulled down.

EDIT: But just to clarify, the tenon being loose is not a problem with mine.
 
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