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Custom Chinese Mouthpieces HERE WE GO AGAIN

9K views 50 replies 21 participants last post by  Grumps 
#1 ·
Refaced Chinese Mouthpieces on eBay again.

Something that I really have a problem with. These guys buy these lots from China for $25 a piece, carve their initials in them and put on eBay for $200-$300. I actually bought a couple of these from Hong Kong myself and they didn't play too bad. Not a $200 piece however IMHO

Before!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-new-gold-plated-alto-saxophone-sax-metal-mouthpiece-size-5-9-/310744254798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4859cd094e

After

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Custom-Lawton-B-Style-Tenor-Mouthpiece-Blows-Away-New-Lawtons-110-/171437550432?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ea796b60
 
#3 ·
....Something that I really have a problem with. These guys buy these lots from China for $25 a piece, carve their initials in them and put on eBay for $200-$300. ]
Please, go to the place where you keep your American or European sneakers , peek down in them and see where it says they are made.

Now THAT is exactly (not for all but most) JUST rebranding a product that for many brands is not even been " designed" by them! Repeat the same thing for all your clothes.

Mouthpieces.

Lots of people have been doing this for years with French, American or German " blanks" . If they reface it and work on the piece they have done quite a bit of work and they didn't just put their initials (if that's all they do......well it will be a short lived enterprise!)

And yes, everybody wants to make a buck. If they play well I don't see the problem.

At that price though, I can actually buy a second hand original rather than a new copy.
 
#5 ·
Milandro, I have no problem with someone buying blanks and refacing or working on the interior. I have, however, wondered if they replated as, it seems to me, the plating would be removed during the work.

That said, I have no doubt some are just roto-engraving their name. The problem you don't see is one of ethics and trust.
 
#6 ·
Stuart or rather Robert,

I don't have a particular problem with people rebranding someone else's product when it comes down to sneakers or even saxophones, after all the great majority of sellers, even on this forum, some very respected indeed (!) do just that, some don't even see the saxophone and have it directly shipped from the makers from Taiwan or China to the customers that have bought it.

Just add their brand or name and take a substantial mark up for them.

I might not like it, but the last time I checked this was legal and has inspired the trade in the last 2 decades. Now the majority of goods ( any good of any type!) for sale in any shop in the world are rebranded goods made from Chinese brands.

If we don't come to terms with this we might as well not buy anything anymore. Mind you that might be a great strategy!

The only thing that has been bugging me is that I would like to see the compulsory " made in Taiwan, China or Vietnam" on any object sold with the French, German, American or Italian name. I like to call a spade a spade.

I have said many times that I would favor the introduction of the Italian system for food labeling that makes compulsory to indicate the name and address of the producer. This would be great if it was introduce for anything, food or otherwise!

http://www.tradecommissioner.gc.ca/eng/document.jsp?did=17370&cid=117&oid=34

Basic labelling requirements in Italy:

name of products (physical condition or specific treatment)
name/address of manufacturer, packer, seller or importer in the Italian language
country and place of origin
ingredients in descending order of weight
metric weight and volume
additives by category name
special storage conditions
minimum shelf life date
expiry date
lot number
indication of allergens
indication of maximum limits of fats for meat based products
net quantity in volume for liquids and in mass units for all other products
instructions for use, if necessary


In this way you would know EXACTLY who made this mouthpiece.

Again, the sneakers sold by many brands are bought at a fraction of the price that you pay, you just don't know about it.

Despite that I do see how, it is not nice to see an object which seems to be the same as another resold at much more. Because you think that you know that these are " the same" object.

But, are we sure that these things are the same? I don't know. Does anyone?

This is what we see time and time again.

Comes brand so and so with price so and so and then someone comes here saying that " the same" object can be found at much less for another brand.

Fine.

Since none of us has any obligation to buy the rebranded mouthpiece.........don't!

When I buy something I do or try to do what I think it is my homework, get my information, carefully compare prices and then I buy what convinces me. By all means, if these mouthpieces are just rebranded and you think that there is no added value, buy the " original" piece and let the other ones rot!
 
#32 ·
I have said many times that I would favor the introduction of the Italian system for food labeling that makes compulsory to indicate the name and address of the producer.
...
In this way you would know EXACTLY who made this mouthpiece.
But you don't. Ironically, Italy is the poster child for this problem, specifically in the clothing industry in Prato outside Florence. The garments originating from that area are "Made in Italy" and labelled as such, because of course Prato is in Italy, but they're Chinese in every way. They're made of Chinese material, in Chinese factories, by Chinese workers who have entered Italy illegally and do not in any way live as Italians. One can hope that this is an isolated case that isn't going to happen anywhere else, or even for much longer in Prato as they're cracking down a bit.
 
#7 ·
In one instance that I was researching a mouthpiece ( I really was looking for a larger tip than I was using ), I checked the eBay feedback of the Chinese seller which had a known name US maker as a recent sale and feedback for a few pieces.

I don't know whether or not any work was done either which made me curious about the plating.

Right now, if anyone is asking, I recommend the metal wolfies - which includes new and used WTs, Bari, Guy Hawkins, Meyer and perhaps a few others. Old is better but the Babbitts are pretty good, FWIK.

The Borb Oliver mouthpieces from Brazil look interesting. All sorts of styles at attractive prices.
 
#8 ·
It says their by Dave Jary...seem to remember a recent thread regarding problems people have been having with this guy, i for one wouldent buy a $25 mouthpiece for $200-$300 in the hope that it may or may not work for me, what i would be interested in doing is buying one for $25 and having a mess around with it myself just to see what happens more than anything.

I do doubt they would "blow a Lawton away" as stated, that's just sales talk or even wishful thinking as far as i'm concerned.
 
#10 ·
I see nothing in the eBay images that suggest finish work (including rails, tip, and chamber) similar to that of Lawton: http://mouthpiecemuseum.com/MouthpieceMuseum/Lawton.html

The work on the Dave Jary piece looks more like a ritual scuffing than a "transformation". It's a shame that eBay lets this kind of claim stand.

Buyer beware.
 
#18 ·
:) it was an answer to my friend Grumps, whose long time opinion on anything Chinese never ceases to make me smile, an humorous hyperbolic take adapting What Cato the elder ( Marco Porcio Catone) had ben shouting against Cartagho.

Delenda est Chartago! Means Destroy Cartagho.


Seres is the Latin name of, at least a part, of what we now call China.
 
#27 ·
What Jary is doing is just a variation on a theme. It's a theme that's been going on for a long time, the only difference is that the internet now makes the transaction a little more transparent. Historically, a mouthpiece company buys blanks and refinishes them to its own specifications. The general public believes that the mouthpiece company "makes" the piece and, usually with the help of the refinishing house, rumors are developed. For instance, Woodwind N.Y. buys blanks from Riffault and makes the Meliphone Special out of them. Rumors start about how the Meliphone Special is made using a rare hard rubber (or rod rubber, which has its own mystique). Woodwind isn't going to say, "no, we buy these blanks from Riffault just like anybody else can do." Same is true with Link, Dukoff, Brilhart pieces. The refinishing businesses didn't make the blanks, they just refinished student blanks which they bought from various mouthpiece manufacturers.

The heritage of certain pieces can now be easily traced because of the internet. I can now look at detailed pictures of 10 vintage Berg Larson mps in a day. I can look at 10 new Chinese Berg Larson knockoffs in a day. If I want to be high bidder, I can purchase, measure, and resell 20 Woodwind NYs in a month (which I have done on some old pieces). When the rumors were being created about these older pieces, you were lucky to see a couple a year. Now, it's possible to examine and compare hundreds. That's great. The only downside is that some of the myths don't stand up to an examination.

So Dave Jary is buying blanks and refinishing them. Just like Otto Link and many others have done. Jary doesn't have an exclusive contract with the blank manufacturer with a confidentiality agreement. Mr. Link apparently did, as that's what makes the manufacturer that he used difficult to identify and makes some believe that Link himself made the pieces. Because of the internet, Jary is using an identified manufacturer who states that the piece is gold-plated brass (which isn't necessarily true). Link's manufacturer was concealed, so he could claim that his hard rubber pieces were "eburnated" using some special process and his metal pieces were "bell metal." Unfortunately, Jary is limited in the marketing hype that he can use because of the internet exposure, although he seems to be doing his best.

Hype and rumors aside, is there value added by refinishing the standard blank and, if so, how much? The vintage blanks used by Mr. Link, Woodwind NY, and others are still available for about $40. The pieces refinished by Link, WWNY, etc. sell for 10 times that. Mr. Jary is selling his pieces for 10 times the amount paid for the blank. So the question is whether he is adding that much value. Again, with hype and rumor aside (which is very, very difficult), how do the pieces play? What he is doing is old hat.

Mark
 
#29 · (Edited)
I've just finished a new mouthpiece and had a look to this thread... I can't believe what I read. Is everything so easy?
I do everything, from the starting idea to the final mouthpiece. Everything starts from a need or from a dream, the 2D sketch becomes a 3D drawing, the 3D drawing a set of instructions for the computer controlled machine, the rough piece becomes a very high quality hand made mouthpiece. The finished mouthpiece is tested by myself and by the best local players in my area to exchange idea and opinions. We spend a lot of time together to transform a dream in a mouthpiece. We try to achieve the best possible sound, we do it for the music. That's the way manufacturers should live this art, money is nothing!

Stan
 
#31 ·
I don't buy anything from China. I'd rather use a coat hanger to make toast than buy a toaster made in China, for instance. When I shop, I look for Canadian-made stuff first, then US-made stuff, then Mexican- or Central/South American-made stuff. No problem with European-made stuff. I don't mind paying more. I don't know what that labels me as but i couldn't care less. It's my take on "shop locally".
 
#38 ·
Cheers Pete! Well done with your investing in a company with morals!

In many countries of Europe, at this very moment, goods are being delivered by truck drivers and fruit is being picked by EU citizens employed by companies based OFFICIALLY in their countries but operating in other countries and paid only a fraction of the minimum wage (that is if the country in question has a minimum wage policy!) legal in they countries where they are, in fact, working.

However, this has got nothing to do with what we were originally discussing.
 
#42 ·
We could consider several variations on that theme:
  • Name of the Chinese maker, Jinbao or whatever.
  • Some random European sounding name, e.g. "Schiller".
  • A known name - as obscure perhaps as my name, or as well known as Yamaha.
  • Any name whatever, with "Made in USA" added.

Given that the mouthpiece is made in China, the last would be fraudulent. The phony European name is the common case, and it's essentially fraudulent but seems to be within acceptable limits. Companies like Yamaha, Hohner, Fender, etc. use Chinese factories (or Indonesian, etc.), and sometimes are quiet enough about it that it borders on fraud, but the other variable here is that Yamaha may be able to exert enough control over Chinese manufacture that it's different than having a Chinese instrument stenciled with their name.
No, the final "mouthpiece" is not "made in china." The original blank may be made in China, as might the brass or rubber from which it is made. Or it could be made in Russia or Indonesia.

I could buy that blank, then change it according to my UK design, have it plated and sell it. It would therefore be "Made in England"

I don't actually do that, all my mouthpieces are made from scratch in England, though I can't say where some of the materials originate, ie the resin, brass, silver or hard rubber (though I think the rubber is from Germany). I have no idea where the brass or silver or the gold for the gold pate originates because it is irrelevant to me (and my customers AFAIK).

But does it matter? To whom and why? The mouthpiece design and significant final transformation happened in England, so it's "Made in England"
 
#41 ·
We could consider several variations on that theme:
  • Name of the Chinese maker, Jinbao or whatever.
  • Some random European sounding name, e.g. "Schiller".
  • A known name - as obscure perhaps as my name, or as well known as Yamaha.
  • Any name whatever, with "Made in USA" added.

Given that the mouthpiece is made in China, the last would be fraudulent. The phony European name is the common case, and it's essentially fraudulent but seems to be within acceptable limits. Companies like Yamaha, Hohner, Fender, etc. use Chinese factories (or Indonesian, etc.), and sometimes are quiet enough about it that it borders on fraud, but the other variable here is that Yamaha may be able to exert enough control over Chinese manufacture that it's different than having a Chinese instrument stenciled with their name.
 
#45 ·
...... Companies like Yamaha, Hohner, Fender, etc. use Chinese factories (or Indonesian, etc.), and sometimes are quiet enough about it that it borders on fraud, but the other variable here is that Yamaha may be able to exert enough control over Chinese manufacture that it's different than having a Chinese instrument stenciled with their name.
Yamaha doesn't outsource to other factories, they have their own factory in China and Indonesia and, to my knowledge, is the only company in the business, actually stamping instruments with made in China or Indonesia if that's here they were made even if the law doesn't require them to do so.

What I was advocating is a compulsory system that tells the consumer where any musical instrument (among other things) is made and by which company in which plant.

But even this will strand if the legal definition of " made" is equal to the definition of " assembled' with components bought somewhere else.

Se the all too controversial discussion on the new Selmer SeleS line!

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?213298-Selmer-launch-new-brand-SeleS

When I go to the supermarket, often, there are, side by side, two similar products looking the same, in the same jar or tin.

I have been in the food industry long enough to know that often times they are the same. If the label tells me who made it and where I might opt for the cheaper of the two.

But this has nothing to do with the issue that you seem to want to pursue and that is the multi-faceted argument of the global economy.

These days in countries like the US the chance that you can actually buy a non Foreign made product is scarce.

For the most part I would say almost impossible if you look at what kind of components are used in the production and even if you found something " Made in Usa" from top to bottom, could you be sure that the shareholders of the companies are not Foreigners?

Autarchy, whatever you think of it, is a thing of the past.

Globalisation has happened and not without our participation.

We all contributed to it by buying the things that were offered to us and by, even only passively, embracing the ideology of the economical system in which we live.

Maybe the sellers imposed it to us but ultimately we went for it.

But again this is another thread and one who would rapidly get closed because can only go into politics.

So to the point of this thread.

I know, for sure, that there are importer of musical instruments who don't do anything to the imported instruments and simply flip them as they are and in some cases have the maker ship directly from China or Taiwan to the customer where he might be.

There are others ( mostly the makers in China) who comically pretend that their companies produce with the help or French technicians or American technicians.

Then there are a number of companies which say they do things to the instruments, by them assembled outside the production countries, saxophones obviously implying they do things of great value because these saxophones always cost a LOT more than the ones which don't say anything about assembling and where.

In these many years I have asked many times people who say they designed a saxophone to show the " design" and people who say they assemble to show the assembling. I have yet to be satisfied by ANYONE!

There was the case of a Belgian person who said he had a company doing all of this, I offered to go there visit the premises and make pictures of the whole process. He shut his business (and reopened it somewhere else!)

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?77467-Schille-saxophones-(Brussels)

So, back to this mouthpiece.

I have no idea of where is it made, what do they do to it. It might be a pure Chinese mouthpiece with a name other than the real maker scratched on it, it might be a heavily modified blank. I don't know.

Like many things ion life nobody forces me to buy it and I agree, it is a lot of money if this simply is simply flipped.

However, as things currently stand, it is not illegal to sell a rebranded product of any type!

IF however the law would make it compulsory and would actually give stringent definitions on the criteria of " Made or Assembled" we might actually know a bit more about what we are buying.

Hence my previous reference to labeling.

Would this prevent people to find a way to sell us something cheap for a lot of money. NO, but it would make it at least more complicated.

In the end, the best policy if one objects to all of this is NOT buying, which is something I urge anybody to do if this is what they think it is happening here.
 
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