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Olds Ambassador tenor?

13K views 31 replies 4 participants last post by  vestaviascott 
#1 · (Edited)
Considering purchase of an Olds Ambassador Tenor sax.

Any thoughts on this model sax?

Can anyone ID it specifically?

Bicycle frame Vehicle Bicycle part Bicycle fork Wood


Musical instrument Reed instrument Wind instrument Brass instrument Woodwind instrument


Musical instrument Reed instrument Brass instrument Wind instrument Woodwind instrument


Musical instrument Reed Reed instrument Saxophone Brass instrument
 
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#2 ·
This is one of those saxophones that were probably made by some Italian company, although there is a debate on which one it is.

Alfonso Rampone? Alfredo Santoni? Desidera?

Despite some elelments which would suggest this being a Malerne saxophone, some of these horns clearly say Made in Italy on them.

There is now a consensus on the fact that some Malerne looking horns were copied in Italy and then often sold ( even to Malerne!? In that case they weren't copies ) under many names.

250$ is a good price anyway!

This is a Getzen belonging to another SOTW memberAl9672

 
#3 ·
Yup...that's an odd one. Olds never made saxes themselves, except perhaps their Super. Most Ambassadors were either:

Pierret

Martin

Buescher

Santoni, Italy

As Milandro said, this one has aspects of a typical hybrid Malerne-Italian sorta horn, but it doesn't even quite fit within the usual suspects of that.

Probably something like this. An exact ID will be pretty much impossible, but these sorta horns can be good players. If it is playing up and down and needs no work, worth maybe $450.

A little bit of red rot developing, though....could use a chem bath, the body.
 
#9 ·
Maybe so, but a Malerne is actually pretty readily identifiable, at least the bodies are ...as they had certain detailing which can be a giveaway....bellbrace, the ferrule details, etc.

Looking at this one more closely, though, I agree it is probably not Malerne in any way....

But I don't see Santoni details on this horn, either....the keywork, particularly the spat keys.... isn't recognizable to me...then again, all Santonis I have seen seemed to be of a relatively late period (mid '60's and beyond)....so I dunno what an early Santoni may have looked like.

Milandro have you ever come upon any images of older ones ?
 
#8 ·
then all of the above regarding the possible Italian makers stands.

Probably made by Santoni.

But the company disappeared years ago without too many archives left.

Bulgeroni, the Italian Oboe and piccolo maker were somehow connected to Santoni.

They MIGHT help.....

ahttp://www.bulgheroni.it
 
#12 ·
I picked up the horn today. No cash. Traded a set of in-ear earphones I no longer use and could not sell after several days on CL. So, I have a tenor, but whether its a decoration or an instrument remains to be seen.

Going to drop it off with a local pro that I've been communicating with and see what he thinks. The pads look like they need work to me. Its missing a key guard (see pic), the keys could probably use massive adjustment and the laquer is in pretty poor shape and smells strong of metallic odor.

Seems to have a rather large bell.

A few more pics:

Using my guitar stand as a temporary home for the sax
Musical instrument Reed instrument Saxophone Wind instrument Wood


"Italy" on the bell. Serial number is just above and runs vertically up the tube.
Automotive lighting Musical instrument Amber Gas Brass instrument


Missing keyguard
Light Musical instrument Arthropod Insect Beetle


This gap seems really large to my untrained eyes
Automotive lighting Automotive tire Wood Amber Bicycle part


Pad detail
Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Rim Auto part Metal
 
#16 ·
Some horns especially older ones, sometimes do that .

It's not only musical brass instruments but it affects coins too. Why that happens but only to some brass instruments is not exactly clear, probably has something to do with the condition where the horn was kept or the environmental situation where it was.

Some people say it has to do with one's body chemistry ( which doesn't explain why sometimes I have experienced this while countless other times I haven't!)

When you are going to have it overhauled it is possible for the tech to (if he has one) to clean it with an ultrasonic bath.

Anyway.

You acquired this horn in a trade, in my view if you intend to play it and want to repair it you won't regret it. It will cost you as much as it will probably ever be worth but you will have a rather unique saxophone.
 
#19 ·
I suppose we have to agree to disagree.

Again, about the relationship between Santoni and other brands , especially French, I can only suggest to follow the link I gave.

Not only, I suggest you haver a conversation with Claudio Zolla of Rampone & Cazzani he might tell you a couple of interesting things about who made what and when.

After that, without any documents being available, mine or yours, are, of course only speculations.
 
#20 ·
Thanks... actually....I did read your link, and here's what it mentioned regarding Malerne horns being made outside of the Malerne factory/facilty:

"So, it’s possible that Malerne (which was actually bought by SML around 1975) did have Ditta Giglio or another firm produce a horn or two for their direct sale, every now and then. However, where the reasoning takes a deep plunge into darkness is to assume that all Malernes were made by Ditta Giglio and/or that Ditta Giglio built a horn for Malerne"

This hardly suggests any conclusivity that your posts seem to suggest. When one adds to this the fact that the known Santoni/Giglio bodies, while similar in some ways, also differ a bit in specification in some other aspects from the Malerne bodies (bore, taper, dimension, bellflair, etc)......the questions become more, perhaps....

But thanks for putting that out there, I will look at further sometime when either brand crosses my table again...the concept that perhaps a number of these stencil mfr's, Malerne included, all bought bodies from the same source is an interesting speculation.
 
#23 ·
So, from what you can see, does this appear to be an oversize bell? Is that a desirable feature in a horn?

I tried playing it again this morning. I can only get a few notes out. Mostly overblowing squeaks. I'm used to Alto and tenor appears to take a different level of air control.

In addition to my inexperience, I think part of it has to do with the capability and current state of the horn and part has to do with this cheapo $10 Palatino PW220 mouthpiece I'm using. I've got a brand new Bari "soft" reed on it.

The tenor MP and tip opening are much larger than what I've become accustomed to in working with my son's new YAS-23 Alto over the past couple weeks. The alto is super easy to play compared to tenor at this point.
 
#25 ·
That's why folks start on Alto, easier to blow for many.....

The bellbrace appears to be a square wire, turned diagonally. That's the brace on Malernes. You got that brace, you got the serial running vertically....so yeah, it's a 'Malerne body'*...this is one of 'those' horns. Call it what you want...I still say Hybrid is a reasonable term.

European made stencil, Malerne body with keywork by others.

These are good players, they really are. Low market value ($500 in good playing shape) but those bodies make for a pretty kick#ss sax ~ really nice, large bore design, big old dark and ballsy tone, nice response and free blowing. Definitely a good choice for a beginner Tenor player; you can keep that one for quite a while, too....

As I said, if tech service can be kept to $500 (do include a chem or sonic clean of the body and neck in that)...you didn't do badly.

*quotations tipping hat to Milandro's previous comments
 
#27 ·
As I said, if tech service can be kept to $500 (do include a chem or sonic clean of the body and neck in that)...you didn't do badly.[/COLOR]
At present, I just asked the tech to get it adjusted and in playable condition. I'll research chem bath though. The horn definitely needs so cleaning, chem or sonic.

Short of a full blown teardown and soak, is there something I can do to spot clean the worst spots where there is red rot danger?
 
#28 ·
Specifically, the places on the bell over the logo area look pretty bad. Is there a way to stop or remove the red rot coloring there without a full chem bath? Just a spot cleaning on those places? If so, what would you recommend? Tarn-X, Barkeeper's friend? Steel/Bronze Wool and some elbow grease?

The discoloring appears to be on the part of the bell where one might place their hands to hold the sax. Perhaps skin oils to blame? Although I've read that the red rot usually starts inside the horn and manifests out.





Also, less important and purely for cosmetics, any way to dull the finish overall to get a more vintage, matte look and feel to the horn? It does seem a bit counter-intuitive though, to try to remove the protective coating that's trying to prevent the red rot taking hold. I just prefer a vintage, matte finish look to the bright golden finish that kinda screams "band instrument".

**Collinite metal wax?
 
#29 ·
Hi.

2) No, you cannot dull lacquer unless you abrade it with steel wool or sandpaper ~ and you do NOT wanna do that.
Fact is, you bought a lacquer horn, so unless you wanna strip it completely to bare brass and let it patina into a bronzy matte finish (although it may also patina into red rot...it's a tossup how bare brass will patina once stripped)....just leave it be.

1) Quite honestly...the tech is going to have to take off some or most of the keys anyway. THAT is the point to have him do a cleaning of the body. It's more expensive tp have it done another time after the horn is all put back together and regulated. A bath while horn is disassembled only adds $50-75; but bringing in an assembled horn and requesting a bath will run $100-125 because the tech needs to completely disassemble, reassemble, and then do a quick check of regulation on it, if you get my drift.

Chem or sonic bath is done first, then pads and keys are worked on....is the usual/quickest/easiest/cheapest sequence.

If you really are gonna skip the tech bath....you could use something like Brasso and a microfibre cloth on the parts where the red is the worst. Brasso is kinda toothy stuff, but it removes red rot the quickest. Another, slightly gentler option is Flitz paste (grey tube)...needs a bit more elbow grease but it's less abrasive too. These will require repeated applications...around 3 depending on the severity.
Gotta use the microfibre cloth, the kind for glass....don't use a t-shirt or terricloth rag.

Do NOT use Barkeepers Friend or Wrights Cream unless your intention is to rinse off the entire sax with soap & water afterward (something you cannot do if the horn is assembled).
 
#30 ·
Got the sax back yesterday. It's alive! Was very pleased that she plays up and down very nicely, even altissimo!

I'm still squeeking a bit at times, but nothing at all like before. I think I just need to get used to the air support requirements of a tenor vs alto and I'll be on my way. My tech gave me a demo when I picked it up and he was really able to make it sing. The horn has a *very* big sound.

I'm only into if for $50 of bench time. Had to replace two pads, fix the action on almost every key, fix some springs and a few other adjustments. Tech was able to remove a quarter size dent near the upper stack. Still need a new key guard over the D# on the bow. Gotta be careful with that one until I can get it repaired.

Also, the spring on the top pinky key is still a bit loose. The key will return, but the action seems much looser than the other keys. I'll need to get the tech to check that out. Either he missed it or it came loose after he fixed it.

Overall, very pleased with my first sax transaction. Got a playable sax for a song, literally.
 
#31 ·
Well, yeah, you cannot beat that. Enjoy.

Since your out-of pocket has only been $50 (I'll gloss over the fact that you igniored my advice to have her cleaned while at the shop :dazed:), do yourself a great big favor:

Spend $100-200 on a few lessons with a sax teacher, even if it is just 2 or 3 lessons....so you can get started on the right foot as far as proper blowing technique, air support, and embouchure.

Years ago I used to recommend folks just look it up online, but the problem these days is tehre are soooo many BAD youtube vids on this, with conflicting info, that IMHO doing this is no longer a reliable source.

Then, invest $20-40 in a new mouthpiece. Even just something like a Yamaha 4C, Hite Premier, or Brilhart Ebolin 4....all in that price range. Easy-blowing mouthpieces....

One-on-one lessons is the way to go. Just get some fundamentals down with a teacher. So many people end up NOT doing this, and they undercut themselves right out of the gate. You start playing with poor technique, you develop habits which later on are much harder to correct....

Have fun...
 
#32 ·
Thanks George, great advice as usual. And thanks for helping narrow down the choice of mouthpiece. I hear alot about the Yamaha 4C which seems like it may be the safest choice (and cheapest) of the 3 you mention.

I've also heard good things about the Selmer 7713 Goldentone #3 and the Rico pieces (graftonite and metalite). However, I'm kinda frozen with pulling the trigger because I can't decide which one to get or what size.

I really like the vintage look of the Brilhart Ebolin too. I'm looking at This one?

Also heard great things about the J&D Hite Premier (for the darker tone I favor). Here's the one I'm considering as a top choice.

So, I definitely want to get off on the right foot and I just want to make a good decision on the mouthpiece that will give me the best start.

My current top 2 choices:

Liquid Bottle Cylinder Drinkware Rectangle


Camera accessory Tints and shades Auto part Font Cylinder
 
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