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King Tenor Zephyr III series or King super 20 IV series ?

9K views 15 replies 8 participants last post by  BrownSugar 
#1 ·
Hello
I would like to ask you an opinion about the best choice between these two King.

The first is a King Zephyr third series (which according to what is written on saxpics should be the best set for the Zephyr, being the same horn of the super 20).
The price of this Zephyr is around $ 2,000

the second is a King Super 20 fourth series, one of the last of this serie.La fourth series, according to saxpics has undergone significant changes since the most popular third serie.il price of this sax is about $ 1,000

considered that the prices in Europe are much higher than in the United States.

Now, what interests me is the quality of sound, and I ask you since I do not have the opportunity to try the two sax

thank you

Dario
 
#2 ·
I have a series IV S20 that really sounds great. It makes my old Mark VI stay in the case more than any other horn Ive ever had. I like it better than a Zephyr I sold in the past because the series IV keywork is closer to Selmer style. The Zephyr also sounded great.
 
#6 ·
I'm pretty sure the series IV are Cleveland horns with single socket necks.
I have a series III with double socket neck which has a dark rich tone.
I recently sold a Zephyr 318*** serial, which makes it a series III I think.
This also had a great tone, slightly brighter and very smokey, quite different to the S20 but still a great tone.
The ergo's are better on the S20 for my liking particularly in the left pinkie table which has a much softer touch to it.
The Zephyr ergos are still quite workable and easy to adjust to, so I would base it on a play test.
The seriesIII zephyrs may have the same body tube as the S20 but that is about it.
The keywork is quite different and this is particularly noticeable in the bell keys B and Bb which don't have the rollers like the Zephyr and have a quieter action and softer feel.
 
#8 ·
The bell keys on a Super 20 are directly connected to the rods and to the key cups. On a Zephyr, there is an indirect connection through rocker arms which is just not as good a design because it allows for more slippage and imprecise movement.
Even with comparable deals I would prefer the Super 20 because it has a higher upside resale potential, and in this case, the Super 20 sounds like a better deal anyway.
 
#9 ·
Find out if the Super 20 was made in Cleveland or Eastlake. That will tell you how good of a deal it really is. Since you said it was a late "Series IV" (a vague classification system never used by King btw but invented by a guy who made a website called saxpics.com) it could actually be an Eastlake if it's a, say, serial #426,xxx. But even so, $1,000 for an Eastlake could still be a steal. I think the decision really depends on what kind of music you're playing. If you're playing straight ahead jazz, the late 40s or early 50s Zephyr may have a darker, richer, jazzier sound that may be more suited to your needs. By the time you get to the late Cleveland/early Eastlake horns, the Super 20 had evolved into a brighter rock monster from the smooth jazz machine it was when it premiered in the mid '40s.
 
#12 ·
Find out if the Super 20 was made in Cleveland or Eastlake. That will tell you how good of a deal it really is.
I disagree, though.

For $1000 it doesn't matter if it's an Eastlake S20....that's still a complete steal.

The only diff between the late Clevelands and early-middle Eastlakes was the neck specification changed.

I have literally measured up examples side-by-side, an 8 year spread across production facilities. Body tube, bow, bellpiece are identical. Only think which changed was the taper of the neck specification.

You are correct, this produced a slightly brighter tone. BUT, side-by-side, both versions sound and feel unmistakeably S20. To suggest that somehow this change took away the classic, 'vintage' S20 tone would be erroneous. Even an Eastlake S20 has that huge sound and wonderful blowing response.

IMHO, it is the Eastlake S20's which are the true under-radar values. They have bafflingly gotten poo-poohed online, and this keeps their demand quite low. Yet all the way up until the end of S20 production, these still rivaled the VI's as the top-reputation pro horn.....

I would have said go for the S20. Even if it needs $500 of work, it is still a great deal.

Undoubtedly, some buyer quick with a decision got a complete steal then....no doubt that S20 wasn't going to stick around for long. Interesting why the seller let it go for so little...even as a project horn these fetch $1200-1300 easy....
 
#10 ·
Thanks to all for the valuable suggestions.
the novelty is that the seller of the super 20 told me that the sax is no longer available,but he has a Zephyr, 4° series and the price is similar to the super 20, maybe a little less at around 750/ 800 $.

@SSSPlayer
the sound that i prefer is the "vintage" sound.Of course if is possible to find a newer sax ,with a more comfortable keywork, which is able to produce a similar/vintage sound,that's would be great.
i know that this is the usual and perhaps puerile research that make all the people who love this tool, but at the same time is entertaining.....
 
#11 ·
Depending on your budget, you may find a modern sax that fits your vintage sound requirements but you have to realize there is no one clearly defined vintage sound.

The keilwerth SX reminded me of Buescher 400 and a Buffet 400 I had seemed to me to be a cross between a Selmer and a Keilwerth. Vikings have "that vintage vibe" and with different necks, modern saxes can feel more like vintage.

Maybe a Vito/Beaugnier Duke will do it for you.
 
#13 ·
Yes, I partly agree. Buffet and JK would be my choices for a contemporary horn with a vintage quality tone. Yanagisawas as well, although more in their richness and width than in their darkness. BUt many people would equalte this with a vintage quality of sound and it'd be a reasonable equation.

Selmer, France of course but now we are getting pricey.

The many boutique brands which claim 'vintage sound' do not stack up in reality.....certainly not like a JK or nice Buffet S-1 does.

But indeed if you were heading towards an S20 in keywork feel, an older JK or one of the Beaugnier-made Vito Specials/Dukes or many Noblets also had keywork designs leaning toward contemporary.

Then again, a Zephyr pre-1960 is a really nice horn, too..ohhhhh, .let's face it....old Kings just ROCK, period....and IMHO folks tend to overemphasize the ergonomic thang anyway.
 
#14 ·
I have a IV series Zephyr #338 s/n, and I (and anyone who's tried it) think it's absolutely amazing. It's been played a lot, you can tell it's an outstanding horn.
A friend once got a similar Zephyr, only a couple thousand away (#336 iirc) and it sounded nowhere like this one, we swapped necks and that's what it was. He sold it shortly thereafter.
 
#15 ·
I had three zephyr tenors at one point, a 51 a 59 and a 48.
The 51 and 59 were identical in every way except condition.
The 48 had the wire guards three ring strap hook etc.
All three were double socket necks in varying condition.
The 59's neck was a shocker, pulled down, split on both sides and underneath.
The 51 had signs of a minor past pulldown and the 48 was in good nick.
I repaired the 59 neck myself, correcting the angle removed major dents and resolder the split sides and bottom.
I would swap and change those necks around quite a bit and the only noticable difference in tone was with the 59's damaged neck.
This one was the screamer of the three, very bright a seemed louder than the other two.
All three horns were on the darker side but the neck from the 59 made any of them far brighter than their original necks.
At the same time I also had and still do have a 379*** super 20 which is by far the darkest of all of them.
I've since sold the three Zephyr's and kept the Super 20 due to its superior keywork and in my opinion darker more rounded tone.
Of the Zephyrs the 51 had the best tone I believe, but all were very nice sounding horns.
 
#16 ·
at the end I bought a 1949 Conn 10m :)
I know it may seem daunting to open a 3ed in the King section, to seek and receive advice about ( thaks again to all) and finally getting a Conn, but this sax, in my opinion, it was impossible not to get it.
I don't know if i can post some photos here ,anyway it is in pristine condition ,with a nice patina and original case.The pads should be ok also (i bought it fromm internet).
Paid 1080 euro ,which in Europe is a super price for that kind of sax.

I apologize for having bothered with my questions, but now I wanted to share the happy ending.
 
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