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Clarinet Problems with B

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17K views 33 replies 12 participants last post by  Lambros 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm mainly a tenor player, and have done some small gigs on tenor, bari and clarinet. I recently bought a good Buffet E12F clarinet and am having problems getting to B to speak without playing to loud. It isn't a leak because my E is working fine, but at the end of the lower joint is a slightly wider part. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem? I am using Vandoren 3 reeds on a M30 mouthpiece. Recently, I have been in a few different humidity levels, so I was wondering if that has something to do with it?


Ps. I do lots of long tones
 
#3 ·
Clarinets get wider at the bell end to aid projection. This is the beginning of the bell flare.
I think it is probably your crows foot (C and B pads and mechanism) has come out of adjustment.
Low E, although it uses the same pads as B, is not a real indication if you have a leak on those pads.
I'd take it to a tech.
 
#4 ·
You have a leak. Sometimes beginning clarinetists think that because everything 'works' without the register key depressed that there are no issues with the pads/adjustment.
More times than not there is a small leak that doesn't rear it's ugly head UNTIL the regester key is deployed.
Get the horn to a tech.
Mouthpiece/reeds/humidity/long tones don't mean squat when there are leaks in the instrument.
 
#6 ·
All good advice above. You may also be pulling one or more of your fingers off its ring (or bumping the banana/sliver keys if you have large digits) when you reach for the pinky levers that control the B that's troubling you, and the C just above it. Watch your hands in the mirror (or better yet, have a clarinet player watch) as you play a scale and see if that's the case.
 
#9 ·
just thank your stars it isn't a bass clarinet because you would be getting no where fast if either combination of E/B & F/C wasn't fully sealing. Your crow's foot needs to be adjusted to allow the B to fully seal in all likelihood or the F/C isn't fully sealing when you press the E/B key with either the left or right hand.
 
#13 ·
Do you notice a difference/improvement if you play the B with both hands, left hand finger on the B key, right hand finger on the C key? The most common problem is the crow's foot that was mentioned. If it is out of adjustment in a way that the B key doesn't close the C key, then the B will stop working before the low E. Only a bigger leak will also stop the E from working.

If this is the problem, then the easiest DIY method to fix it is add some material between the E/B key and the crow's foot.
Maybe the material fell off the crow's foot on your clarinet?
Most likely it just got bent a little, so the best way to fix it is by bending it back, but I'm not sure I'd recommend to do that DIY but some people can do that just fine even without much exprience.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Yes, you have a leak which affects B far more than E, and this is by fart the most common maladjustment on a clarinet.

It may be as Clarnibass says, but a problem with this linkage is almost always accompanied with the F/C &/or the E/B key's pad closing securely at the back (nearest the key's hinge) before it seals at the "front".

Correction is by bending the key cup arm or re-aligning the pad in the key cup, or installing a thinner pad.

I would say that this problem emerges within a year on about 95% of brand new clarinets.
Following that there may be quite a lot of adjustment work in the area, that really is beyond the scope of the average DIYer (and quite a few technicians!)
 
#15 ·
the most typical cause for the F/C not closing with the E/B activated either left or right handed is a tiny sliver of cork on the crow foot that needs to be thick enough to depress the F/C to fully seal. We are talking about a new clarinet here as well and it is most likely the case.
 
#17 ·
Hmm. But a problem with this crowsfoot linkage is almost always accompanied with the F/C &/or the E/B key's pad closing securely at the back (nearest the key's hinge) before it seals at the "front".
If it were just a crowsfoot linkage problem, then the issue would almost certainly go away if the F/c key or lever were pressed along with the E/B.

Correction is by bending the key cup arm(s) &/or re-aligning the pad(s) in the key cup(s), &/or installing a thinner pad(s).

I would say that this problem emerges within a year on about 95% of brand new clarinets.
Following correction of the pad sealing, there may be quite a lot of adjustment work in the area, especially if "double action" is to be eliminated, and that really is beyond the scope of the average DIYer (and quite a few technicians!)

Another issues that can contribute to this problem:

- Play in an E/B key's pivot.
- An insecure E/B key post.
 
#18 ·
Gordon before you really start to convolute what I wrote, please accept what was the intent of what I was saying. If I understood the OP, he can play a clear B while fingering C from the left hand and B from the right, then clearly there is not enough buffer between the crows foot engaging C and B. The B seals completely and the C doesn't without the aid of the right hand C key and this can be flipped with the same results (right hand C and left hand B)...do we understand each other now? He is getting a fairly clear low E/F combination, that he made plain to understand.
 
#19 ·
... If I understood the OP, he can play a clear B while fingering C from the left hand and B from the right, then clearly there is not enough buffer between the crows foot engaging C and B. The B seals completely and the C doesn't without the aid of the right hand C key and this can be flipped with the same results (right hand C and left hand B)...do we understand each other now? He is getting a fairly clear low E/F combination, that he made plain to understand.
That's not what the OP wrote at all. He never even mentioned C or F.
 
#20 ·
I guess some people like to debate things to no end Gordon and go off on tangents in the process. It was understood/implied that tenorsaxy wasn't have a problem with low F and clarion C and bandmommy so astutely commented that the problem/issue of leaks in the lower pads, especially with clarion C was revealed when the Bb/register key is open. The point of all this is setting up the crow's foot so that playing and fingering B/E seals both C/F & B/E tone holes simultaneously and completely without the aid of adding the additional C on either opposing hand to compensate for the leak.
 
#21 ·
In my experience, this is no debate. It is what is...

I took the OP at face value, (without inventing things that he\/she did not actually say) and as I keep saying, it is almost always the case that problems with B (over the break) that don't exist elsewhere on the clarinet, are associated with the F/C pad &/or the E/B pad not closing evenly on their tone holes.

I say this from having located and corrected the problem on thousands of clarinets. Does that experience count for nothing? Do you have some wide experience as a technician from which you can confidently disagree with this?

IF the problem is only with the crowsfoot linkage, then the player usually overcomes it by pressing both pinky fingers at once for the B, i.e. one finger closing F/C and the other finger closing E/B. Indeed quite a few players are surprised to learn that they should not need to press both.
 
#22 ·
I think the OP implied that the C is ok because he never said anything about it, but who knows, maybe the C is bad too. I asked if playing B using both hands makes it play fine, but he didn't answer that yet.

It's possible that the C and B keys are out of adjustment and only a crow's foot adjustment is necessary, but I found that the problem Gordon mentioned is very common regardless. So in this case... who knows.

What I found was that many people don't even realize the F/C and E/B keys close first at the back because they don't notice it. For a start the amount makes a difference. Some people just press with enough force to compensate (depends on how much misudjustment there is). Then just the time between the pad starting to seal until it seals completely is longer. Many people don't realize they shouldn't have to press as hard as they are used to. Some people don't even notice when it is fixed because they press too hard anyway, but they might notice they can press with less force. So just statistically... it is very likely that the F/C and/or E/B keys close first at the back.

However, the OP asked about a DIY repair and if using both hands makes the note sound ok, then it is much easier to repair or at least improve the note with a DIY repair. The problem of the pads closing first at the back is more tricky for a DIY repair.
 
#23 ·
Gordon, I didn't disagree with you or doubt your expertise but things are what they are here on SOTW. I think the OP was competent enough a player to point out if his C/F wasn't working, didn't mention it means nothing wrong with it to me. That's all I was getting at.
 
#24 ·
The issue of F/C pad closing more at the back than the front does not normally perceptively (for most players) affect the C (or the F). That is because this is the final closed pad at the end of the air column and not so critical.

A problem with F/C pad mainly affects playing B.

And I think that if the problem was mainly with the crowsfoot, then the OP, which you credit with so much competency in explaining, would probably explain the condition as "To get a good response from B I have to also press the C key down," or similar.

So my experience of this problem, by far the most common problem on a clarinet sooner or later, the crowsfoot linkage adjustment is most likely a red herring. The correct diagnosis is most likely to be as I have described.

And Nitai is quite correct... Many players accept and live with this problem, believing that it is normal for B to be more difficult to play than the surrounding notes on any clarinet, and pressing the B key harder to compensate.

Diverting attention to the crowsfoot is almost certainly not addressing the particular problem that this player is most likely to have, hence misleading.
 
#25 ·
ok...I say nice things about you, what you have to say and accord you with the respect you or anyone else who posts on this site deserves. The OP is from what I gathered a fairly competent individual and musician and he didn't wrangle with you the way I did. What I don't understand about people like you Gordon is how caustic your tone is most of the time. You may be way off base rarely but even you have to admit that you don't always get things right. Jimmy Yan taught me how to look at a clarinet's set up properly and he was such a nice person about it. He was not only the best tech I ever knew but also the most human and mature one as well.
Again let me reiterate because you don't seem to listen:
The crows foot may solely be at fault, or the C/F pad may be too thin, wrong altogether or not seated properly, and you made a great point about the B post being loose, it's rare but it does happen.
 
#26 ·
... You may be way off base rarely but even you have to admit that you don't always get things right.
I do not apologize for being assertive in presenting information I know to be correct in an environment where so much misleading information is presented. Occasionally I am indeed wrong. I readily acknowledge and apologise. (I hate to mislead people!)

The OP is from what I gathered a fairly competent individual and musician and he didn't wrangle with you the way I did.
First, I saw no reason to make any assumptions about this player. Sorry, but I don't understand why you continue to do so. Relative beginners actually tend to have this "B" problem more than experienced players do, because their instruments are less likely to have received the attention of an expert technician.

Secondly, as every experienced tech knows, the abilities of a player have little correlation with their knowledge and insights of the detailed mechanical function of their instrument. And this OP was no exception, or he would not have started the thread.

What I don't understand about people like you Gordon is how caustic your tone is most of the time.
First, if you want to get personal with me, be honest and make it directly personal, without the "people like you" phrase, which smacks of the discriminatory process of stereotyping in order to apply those stereotypes to individuals. I don't want others to be tarred by my brush, nor vice versa.

You seem to be taking as personal something that was not. Unless I know you pretty well (and I don't) then I try to respond only to the concept statements in a post, hence nothing intended to be personal, nor reacting to the nature of the writer. I hope that this is reciprocated. Is that not appropriate in a very large forum?

Perhaps you misinterpret forthright as "caustic". "Caustic" is a value judgement imposed by the reader rather than the writer, and I think it possibly says more about the particular reader. But perhaps I am sometimes provoked when others persist in presenting incorrect or misleadingly incomplete information.

Jimmy Yan taught me how to look at a clarinet's set up properly and he was such a nice person about it.
I'm glad he was such a nice person... most of my customers find the same about me. I do find myself wondering why if her "taught me how to look at a clarinet's set up properly", he omitted the bit about the most common cause of b functioning poorly.

He was not only the best tech I ever knew but also the most human and mature one as well.
Possibly most of my customers would say the same about me. But it is not really relevant here.
I wonder how he would fare in this forum's crazy environment? Invite him in! There are precious few of us brave enough to even be here. :)
Again let me reiterate because you don't seem to listen:
The crows foot may solely be at fault, or the C/F pad may be too thin, wrong altogether or not seated properly, and you made a great point about the B post being loose, it's rare but it does happen. [/QUOTE]
 
#27 ·
Gordon, perhaps I let my emotions over-flow a bit...I'm human-forgive me and I don't know you at all-this is all true. As for the caustic comment don't take it to heart, the tone of authority is rarely introspective, and for good reason I suppose. Anyway, I'll share with you a link about Jimmy Yan, I'm sure you would have liked him:

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=282239&t=282239
 
#31 ·
I would find the same, except that I tend to focus on the content of each individual post, rather than tarring particular writers.
To me, exressing what is relevant to a topic is more important thna focussing on personalities, especially when there are 20000 odd (?) personalities here!!
 
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