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Who is the greatest saxophonist who could not read music?

27K views 137 replies 52 participants last post by  datsaxman 
#1 ·
There are lots of famous rock and pop musicians (guitarists, keyboard players, drummers, etc.) who never learned to read music, but off the top of my head I cannot think of a single great saxophonist who is known not to have been able (or to be able, if still living) to read music. Obviously, classical players of any era would be excluded, and in jazz it's usually been important to be able to read charts. Even someone like Sidney Bechet, who never used printed music, actually could read it. And the way jazz has been professionally taught for at least the last half-century precludes nonreading as an option. Perhaps a blind saxophonist might qualify, such as Eric Kloss, but braille music exists, so I wouldn't assume merely because a musician is blind that he or she cannot read music. Maybe a rock or blues player is the most likely candidate, but I don't know of any by name.
 
#5 ·
Not sure of any that couldn't tell a C from an F on a music staff, but I read this on http://www.answers.com/topic/johnny-hodges:- "...Hodges was virtually illiterate from a musical standpoint, mostly due to a lack of formal lessons when he first learned to play as a child. Although his reading skills improved as he played with Ellington's band, Hodges preferred, whenever possible, to play by ear or from memory-and to improvise-rather than to follow the written parts..."
 
#7 ·
Could Bobby Keys read? In his book he says he's self taught. .
That isn't associated with not reading. I w as self taught and larned myself to read. Actually, because I didn't know the alto was a transposing instrument I suppose I taught myself to sight-transpose.

John Hart is a great player, blind and doesn't read. I have known many great players who can't read, but due to the frequent need to read if you are going to be professional, many of these are amateur. Great players nonetheless.

There are also plenty of players who sort of half read. ie they read slowly, or know the notes but don't read the rhythms, yet have a good enough ear to learn something quickly enough it doesn't matter.
 
#13 ·
Probably most of the great jazz saxophonists could read music; some of them, especially studio musicians, read very well, others not so well. But obviously improvising is by ear and not dependent on reading skills. I would argue that, if you don't train your ear and learn to use your memory, then reading skill could actually hold you back (especially as an improvisor), if you are dependent on the written page. For one example, it's far more useful to learn the head of a tune from a recording than from a fake book.

But if you're looking for an excuse not to learn to read music, there really is none. Best to learn as much as possible, including reading, as long as you don't become overly dependent on it.
 
#14 ·
But if you're looking for an excuse not to learn to read music, there really is none. Best to learn as much as possible, including reading, as long as you don't become overly dependent on it.
I'm not sure if "you" is a reference to me personally or to the hypothetical "one" ("If one is looking for an excuse ..."). Alas, I learned to read music at age 8 and cannot undo the damage now. But in any case, my question has nothing to do with musical pedagogy. As stated in the OP, I realized that I honestly could not think of a single nonreading great saxophonist. That made me curious. It's clear from the thread so far that there is no instant, "obvious" answer to my question. With guitarists, people could have produced a dozen good answers in 10 minutes.
 
#21 ·
Stan Getz…. According to Gary Burton (and he should know), Stan Getz could not read music.
I think you got that wrong. Getz was an ear player and didn't know a lot about harmony but he was an excellent reader. He worked as a studio musician and also in many of the big name big bands of the swing era, Benny Goodman, Woody Herman etc... Not only could he read very well, he also had photographic memory so only had to read it once and then he knew it off by heart.
 
#24 ·
That's also incorrect. I guess I am the 'fact police' today. The story he recounts himself in that video is about when he played by ear when he was very young in his family band but he was 'discovered' and reprimanded by his strict father. After that he learnt to read very proficiently. When he was with Basie he could read.
 
#29 ·
I don't know if Rhasaan Roland Kirk read music in Braille but he has to be the greatest to perform live without charts.

Often times people say there will never be another performer like one of their favorite's but I can truly say there will never be another sax and flute player like Rhasaan. Inimitable!
 
#33 ·
I don't know if Rhasaan Roland Kirk read music in Braille but he has to be the greatest to perform live without charts.
Well, that's the same as saying he was the greatest jazz saxophonist period, given that every great jazz saxophonist preformed live without charts! Kirk was one of my all-time favorites (I saw him playing live many times), but I wouldn't call him the greatest of all time.
 
#119 ·
Not so sure about that empty music stand - I have a great DVD from 1965 where Hodges picks up some sheets from his stand and waves them in front of Paul Gonsalves to try and wake him up! :lol:
 
#32 ·
Louis Armstrong couldn't read apparently, which came to light when he joined Fletcher Henderson's band in NYC. The story goes that Henderson's wife told him to go away and learn so he could play section parts---which he did admirably!
Herschel Evans (Basie) had problems reading and used to throw the parts through the window!
Stan could read 'fly****' --he started playing bassoon and was a prodigy in his early teens, having lessons from one of the top Metro guys. He could memorize a page at a glance.
Garner could play Beethoven from memory. Art Tatum was blind---and so it goes.
 
#34 ·
Self-deleted. Oh, never mind.
(JL - has nothing to do with your preceding post.)
 
#68 ·
How did he play in Paul Whiteman's band without reading?
Whenever I see these threads about non reading great jazz musicians, I usually have to press the bull cookies button.
The less of you that want to learn to read, the more work for the people who actually take this stuff seriously.
 
#44 ·
I am tempted to debate the concept of "music reading".
Are we talking about knowing the dots, working out a standard, playing with a concert band or having to first sight read a whole big band gig?

I find my first sight reading improves only doing it. It is often mostly a matter of opportunity.


sent from a cheap touchscreen mobile phonw
 
#45 ·
I think reading music is mostly a Jazz and Classical thing.

Rock was about breaking rules and having a good time and not studying.

A lot of Rock players (mostly guitarists and bass players and drummers) couldn't read anything and I was one of them.

I didn't know what a Blues scale was even though I was using the Blues scale notes from picking it up by ear from Blues singers and other Guitarists and just songs in general and I didn't know that a thing like music theory existed but I knew about chord progression patterns in songs because they kept popping up in the songs I was picking up by ear.

Most of the Blues artists couldn't read and didn't know theory.

I'm not a Jazz player but I am a Rock/Blues player and over the years I've picked up some Jazz things and learnt to read a bit (my sight reading is not good) but I am not a Jazz player and never will be and reading wasn't that important but playing and picking things up by ear was.

Like, it would be learning Jumping Jack Flash and working out the notes that Mick was singing by ear which just happened to be Blues scale notes and then working out some of what Keith and Mick Taylor were doing by ear etc etc.

That's all Blues/Rock stuff done by ear and someone just needs a good ear and a good sense of rhythm and the ability to put ideas together with a sense of melody and feeling and that's about it.

Even stuff like Steely Dan and the Police where weird Jazz chords and things could pop up could mostly be worked out by ear for me.

I didn't start trying to read until I was trying to play some Django and Charlie Christian (Benny Goodman) things much later on and these were obviously Jazz.

Bobby Keyes is more of a Rock/Blues player than a Jazz player but probably knows some Jazz bits like I do and he could probably do his Rock sessions without reading.

Seeing that the Sax and other wind instruments were used in Jazz a lot, then reading goes along with that.

Since then there has been Rock and Jazz crossover things and Jazz/Rock hybrid sort of players so some Rock players can read and read very well such as Steve Vai etc.
 
#50 ·
Most of the Blues artists couldn't read and didn't know theory..
Well, once again I have to point out there is NO correlation between being able to sight read and knowing music theory. Two entirely separate skills. I am absolutely certain that someone like Albert King knew what chords he was playing and the I-IV-V progression, ii-V-I cadences, turnarounds, etc, and where to use them. NONE of that requires music reading skill.

Furthermore, good sight readers need absolutely NO music theory to read the music on the page. None. I was pretty good at sight reading way back in grammar school, but I had no idea what a chord was, how to follow a chord progression, the concept of key center, or any of the theory that allows one to improvise and play by ear effectively. I had to learn all that stuff when I started playing in a blues band, early on. And I never looked back; I'm not a very good reader now. I find the visual stuff just gets in my way.

The one place where theory & reading coincide is with a chord chart, but reading a chord chart is far different from sight reading a piece of music.

Bottom line for me, I don't care one whit whether or not a great player can read music! Why does that matter at all, especially if they are a great player? The greatest (and even not so great) jazz improvisors didn't need to read anything.
 
#57 ·
This thread is impressive. 56 posts. It should be a sticky.
 
#61 ·
'How many roads must a man walked down before he can be accepted for what he does instead of for what he should be doing?'

Well said, my friend.

I'm obviously not one of the 'greats', but my reading, if you could call it that, follows many of the real 'greats' tendencies. Like most horn players of my era, I started in school band. Obviously I had to be able to read the music, but even then I now realize that I had started my lifetime trend of listening to how it was played by the better readers, then playing it partially by ear and partially by the music, until I simply 'knew it'. Its the sight-reading that's the worst. I can't sit down and play a big band sheet right the first time, but after a few times I can play it. In an Army band during the late '60s, my reading skills got much better. We had a huge band in Indianapolis thanks to the LBJ Viet-Nam build-up and all the educated musicians joining the Army to get into this band in their local area. So, they were able to assemble an extraordinary stage band of about 22 guys. They put me in it because I was the only sax player who could stand up and blow a solo on anything whether I could read the chart or not. Again, I listened and learned. Even today, I still have my music memory. I have pretty good theory knowledge and use that all the time. My first mentor stressed 'chords' above all, and the lesson stuck.
John's post just above says it all. Actually, he and I played some of the same places back in the day although our paths never crossed.
So, the answer is, you can't draw that line and say 'This guy could read music and this one couldn't'. I'm talking about players with their sight, not blind guys. That's because there is no such thing as a legendary sax artist (a 'great') who could not read music. There were many, however, who were not proficient at it, particularly in sight-reading. Being immensely talented as they were, they transcended written music. These guys could hear the head of a tune and any repeating riffs involved, and they were ready to play over it. One of the 'greats' said, 'Its all about how many tunes you know.' By 'knowing a tune' he didn't mean just being able to play the head, he meant understanding the pattern of the song and knowing all the chords, while being able to change the key at a moment's notice. 'Hey, man, the chick has to do Misty in Db concert' - one, two, three, 'Look at me....'. That'll grow some hair on your chest! :)
 
#62 ·
Talking about other Jazz players, Dave Brubeck had trouble with realtime sight reading but seems to have been capable of reading music in general and he also studied theory.

I think it would be pretty rare to find a well known Jazz artist who couldn't at least be able to understand what the written notes meant even if they couldn't realtime sight read very well and also most of them would have known at least some sort of theory IMO.

http://www.wnyc.org/story/70965-an-hour-with-dave-brubeck/
 
#63 ·
Brubeck studied composition as well as counterpoint with Darius Milhaud at Mills College. During his life, he's written some large-form works, which would imply a command of notation. I read someplace (and I can't verify this source, sorry) that because his eyesight was so poor, that that more than anything, affected his music reading ability, especially as a child. It wasn't that he couldn't read it - it was that he had a hard time seeing it.

p.s @1saxman, as long as we're on the subject, would you be a good guy and please use paragraphs? For those of us who's eyesight is about as good as Brubeck's, [rolleyes] it would sure make things easier. And get your points across a lot better, as well. Thanks.
 
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