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Real simple question about a Cleveland alto

1K views 4 replies 4 participants last post by  rantbot 
#1 ·
I have a Cleveland 613 alto, the type with the big "clown face" keyguard. I don't know anything about Clevelands. For that matter I don't know anything about altos, either. In looking over this horn I noticed that it has taken a whack on the big keyguard, bending it in a bit. Other than that, a small dent just above the bow, and the usual scratches in the lacquer, it doesn't look too awful.

But I noticed that when the instrument is held with the bell straight out, the thumb rest and the neckstrap hook are skewed about 20 degrees to the left.

This seems odd to me. Here's a scale sketch, top view without the neck -

Art Circle Symmetry Drawing Font


On my Vito tenor, the neckstrap hook isn't skewed at all - it's in line with the bell and the body tube - and the thumb rest is skewed a small amount, maybe 5 degrees to the left.

I'm hoping someone can tell me if the 20 degree thing is normal for these cheapo Clevelands. If not, then maybe this instrument has had something of a "history".
 
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#5 ·
Thanks, all. It looks like there's nothing for me to be suspicious about.



That's what I was hoping for, plain ol' factory standard. Occasionally weird things turn up in the "used" market, like "bitsas" - things put together from bits of this, and bits of that. That's not too unusual in clarinets, which are already in bits which can be swapped around like Leggos. With saxes, that'd be tougher, but I try not to underestimate human ingenuity, or human desperation.

Nice drawing - I was a draftsman/engineer for many years in addition to my other vices. :)
What you're seeing is normal, particularly on saxes with the lower stack tone holes rotated to the right like all modern saxes. I just took a look at my Selmer alto and it's even more pronounced, nearly at 45 degrees. Your sax probably has in-line keys since it apparently also has a 'straight' bell, or in-line with the axis of the body and bottom bow. Modern saxes have a 'twisted' bell that veers off to the right, which was done for playing in the seated position or standing with the sax on your right side rather than being held straight out front.
So much for a 'simple' question. :)
Others will know for sure, but I wonder if that horn was 'stenciled' by the H.N. White Co., the maker of 'King' saxes? They were in Cleveland at one time.
Yes, I should have mentioned what it says on the bell -

[crown image]
KING

CLEVELAND
613

KING MUSICAL
INSTRUMENTS
U. S. A.

There's some simple scrollwork from the crown image to below "613".

The only other marking on the horn is the serial number, 5877xx.

I figure it's from about 1975 plus or minus a year or two. I looked at the tone hole joints with a magnifier, and some of them show a thin seam of silver, indicating soldered rather than drawn tone holes. Except for the tone holes, mine looks exactly like 6202xx at http://doctorsax.biz/613_alto.htm

On my Cleveland, the body, bow, and bell are all in the same plane. The keys are just about opposite the neckstrap hook and thumb rest - that is, the keys are in a line skewed about twenty degrees to the right.

Basically, if the eyelet seems to be perpendicular to the escutcheon/foot which is soldered to the body tube, then it was meant to be that way. If the eyelet is at an angle off of the foot, then it was probably bent.
Yes, everything is straight. There are no dents on one side of any of the posts or mounting plates, which would indicate something being clunked and bending the brass beneath.
 
#3 ·
Nice drawing - I was a draftsman/engineer for many years in addition to my other vices. :)
What you're seeing is normal, particularly on saxes with the lower stack tone holes rotated to the right like all modern saxes. I just took a look at my Selmer alto and it's even more pronounced, nearly at 45 degrees. Your sax probably has in-line keys since it apparently also has a 'straight' bell, or in-line with the axis of the body and bottom bow. Modern saxes have a 'twisted' bell that veers off to the right, which was done for playing in the seated position or standing with the sax on your right side rather than being held straight out front.
So much for a 'simple' question. :)
Others will know for sure, but I wonder if that horn was 'stenciled' by the H.N. White Co., the maker of 'King' saxes? They were in Cleveland at one time.
 
#4 ·
The Cleveland was the second-shelf line of King, behind the Zephyr. When the Super 20 appeared, it became the third-shelf, behind the Zephyr.

There was once an instrument company Named Cleveland, but HN White bought them out in the 20's and folded the Cleveland model into their line.

The "613" and "615" model names appeared in the engravings in the late 60's-early '70's, I think.

Basically, if the eyelet seems to be perpendicular to the escutcheon/foot which is soldered to the body tube, then it was meant to be that way. If the eyelet is at an angle off of the foot, then it was probably bent.
 
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