Sax on the Web Forum banner

Maintenance question

5K views 40 replies 15 participants last post by  Smokey613 
#1 ·
A really simple question but I can't get a straight answer from people and I'm paranoid about screwing up my horn - like people have said stuff like "just get some machine oil" or "just go into a modelling shop and buy some oil"...er....I'd rather know exactly what I should buy, y'know.

So yes I've started to take a bit of interest in actually looking after my sax...and I need to buy some oil. I'm looking at Stephen Howard's book which seems pretty comprehensive and from reading his post, I'm thinking this from Halfords, is this going to be ok?

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...uctId_220177_langId_-1_categoryId_255220#tab3

Its gear oil, is part synthetic which is the same thing is synthetic based...right? :|

And whilst we're at it, I might as well ask what people keep to hand for sax maintenance....
My little collection so far, some pipe cleaners, lighter fluid, cotton buds, tea towel/cloth, evoglue (for felts), a pull through with one of those brushes on the end, set of 6 precision screwdrivers...hemp oil (for pads) I think that's it so far..
 
See less See more
#5 ·
Hello :) Is hemp oil bad for pads, I have some and my friend recommended it or does it just do very little? Should I just replace pads when they need replacing - I am working my way through the book by the way (lighter fluid!) but sometimes when you're a beginner its a bit scary..
 
#3 ·
Do not use Hypoid Gear Oil on a saxophone. It belongs inside an axle housing, not on an instrument. Every music store sells Key Oil - try some. Think about it - what exactly are the lubrication needs of a saxophone?

1. To provide for a smooth, fast action.
2. Corrosion prevention.

There is no high-speed or high pressure metal-to-metal contact in a sax, so you don't need exotic lubricants with 'extreme pressure protection' and 'anti-foaming properties' that are made for heavy-duty vehicle use. Key oil is designed to dry up over time on purpose. This is a way of prompting you to use more, which tends to flush contaminants out of the treated areas. You wipe away excess at the seam between the rod and post and you're good for a few weeks. Put it on a Q-Tip and wipe your springs with it too, to prevent rust. Key oil is made with a very thin viscosity on purpose. A little will seep into the post along the spring which the repairman really will appreciate when a broken spring can be pushed out of the post with little trouble. Another process to add to the routine is lightly testing the torque on all screws/rods as you go around the horn oiling it. Always use the right screwdriver for the job. Just put the screwdriver in the slot and give it a light twist. Do not try to forcefully tighten it. The oil also makes its way into the screw/rod threads, preventing corrosion and making the sax easy to work on.
 
#4 ·
Do not use Hypoid Gear Oil on a saxophone. It belongs inside an axle housing, not on an instrument. Every music store sells Key Oil - try some. Think about it - what exactly are the lubrication needs of a saxophone?

1. To provide for a smooth, fast action.
2. Corrosion prevention.

There is no high-speed or high pressure metal-to-metal contact in a sax, so you don't need exotic lubricants with 'extreme pressure protection' and 'anti-foaming properties' that are made for heavy-duty vehicle use.
Indeed not - but as these environmental conditions aren't found in saxes, the additives remain inert.
The basic requirement is for an oil that has a suitable viscosity and is readily available.
Most of the key oil you find in music shops is complete crap - it's often way too thin. It's also rather expensive for what you get.
Yamaha key oil is reasonable, but if you're going to make an effort to get a specialist oil and pay more for it, you might as well get a decent one from a specialist supplier.

Key oil is designed to dry up over time on purpose. This is a way of prompting you to use more, which tends to flush contaminants out of the treated areas. You wipe away excess at the seam between the rod and post and you're good for a few weeks.
Er, no. Really. No.

Put it on a Q-Tip and wipe your springs with it too, to prevent rust. Key oil is made with a very thin viscosity on purpose. A little will seep into the post along the spring which the repairman really will appreciate when a broken spring can be pushed out of the post with little trouble. Another process to add to the routine is lightly testing the torque on all screws/rods as you go around the horn oiling it. Always use the right screwdriver for the job. Just put the screwdriver in the slot and give it a light twist. Do not try to forcefully tighten it. The oil also makes its way into the screw/rod threads, preventing corrosion and making the sax easy to work on.
Wiping the springs with oil makes sense, but it needn't be especially thin - even quite a heavy oil will creep far enough.
As for tweaking the screws - again, no...leave them alone. Some point screws are set in a particular place - and if not returned to exactly that same place it can have an adverse effect on the action. And if you did that every few weeks you might soon end up with very loose point screws.
There's no need for any special treatment to make the oil flow into the keywork, it will do so of its own accord when the keys are pressed.
 
#6 ·
I have to admit, I don't do any of this maintenance on my horn, aside from occasionally (very occasionally) cleaning off some of the pads using a Q-tip moistened with water. About once a year or so, I take the horn into my tech and he does some minor work on it. The horn always plays better after that. Come to think of it, I'm overdue for this check-up; gotta give him a call.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I know of two things that will solve your dilemma.

Part 1:


Part 2 (if you're still in, not that it's hard - just time-consuming):
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/categories/cat_31.html
Matt said to go for the heavy viscosity key oil. I use medium on my horns, but I imagine the heavy could go longer without replacement. Basically, just don't go with the light viscosity unless it's a 'nino.

If you'd like some other tools to mess with horns yourself, you might try these.
Spring Adjusting:
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-sh101.html
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-sh200.html
Leak Adjusting:
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-lt100.html Used in conjunction with a regular long-handled lighter for floating pads, and if you want to try bending stuff a prick set (from any hobby store) and some off this stuff
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/cork-200.html in... I think I use 2.6mm.

Yeah, it's kinda' scary when you first start. Just move up to the more complicated stuff as you get more comfortable. Cleaning the horn and adjusting springs, that's easy. Leak adjusting, that's a bit tougher. Breaking free of the tech, that's hard.
 
#8 ·
Yeah, it's kinda' scary when you first start. Just move up to the more complicated stuff as you get more comfortable. Cleaning the horn and adjusting springs, that's easy. Leak adjusting, that's a bit tougher. Breaking free of the tech, that's hard.
I think it's admirable to learn how to work on your horn, and fix at least the minor things. I might even enjoy doing it. But the fact is, I'd rather spend that time playing the horn. So I take mine to the tech, who knows what he's doing and can do a much better job of it than I ever could. But each to their own. I do plenty of home repairs on things around the house to save money, but they all have a lower priority in terms of 'perfection' than my horn.
 
#9 ·
My reaction is the same as JL's actually.

Great stuff to learn, but quite seriously...does a sax already in good order NEED periodic re-oiling/lubing, really ?

It should not...certainly not between tech visits for tune-ups and tweaks and such. Same goes for the pads.

Some people put stuff on the pads and claim it does wonders. Many others report it just ends up gunking things up. And others say it seems to achieve nothing much. Surface treatments to old pads will not rejuvinate the pad, because the pad is made up of more than just the surface material.

If your intention is really to learn how to break a horn down, take it apart, check for leaks, install a new pad when needed, correct any key play, install new corks and felts when needed, learn how to regulate keyheight and action, maybe even give the body a nice bath.....and lastly know how to troubleshoot unexpected problems which pop up....more power to ya. Go for it. You will need to invest a couple hundred dollars on some of the minimal tools and materials for such an endeavor, but it IS fun as heck to learn how.

But it isn't really necessary to do spot-lubing and pad cleaning on a regular basis, IMHO. Unless there is no tech, or no good tech, anywhere nearby or kinda nearby.
 
#10 ·
Jaye/JL +1

I own two 25+ year old French cars that I drive all the time (not 'collectors items'), and have for the past 25 yrs. (different ones). Ive learned alot about how they work and the systems design etc. and can somewhat differential diagnose but i don't mess with them....that's trouble. But when i talk to my garage, they know exactly what Im talking about and I know what they're talking about.

But I do have one question: what's best to clean the closed key pads that get the messiest, esp Eb. and the stuff that grows right there IN the seat groove, just where it can do the most leak-harm. lighter fluid? hyd peroxide, soapy water?

Main thing is get at good horn, get a GOOD overhaul, then don't mess with it, do basic cleaning and you shouldn't have to do much for a long time, in most cases.

(on a related note- I broke down and bought a cheap chinese curved soprano sax tag: C3S2- see other thread for the verdict. A mixed bag but not horrible. Preliminary final report has been posted. Final final report is pending.)

My reaction is the same as JL's actually.

Great stuff to learn, but quite seriously...does a sax already in good order NEED periodic re-oiling/lubing, really ?

It should not...certainly not between tech visits for tune-ups and tweaks and such. Same goes for the pads.

Some people put stuff on the pads and claim it does wonders. Many others report it just ends up gunking things up. And others say it seems to achieve nothing much. Surface treatments to old pads will not rejuvinate the pad, because the pad is made up of more than just the surface material.

If your intention is really to learn how to break a horn down, take it apart, check for leaks, install a new pad when needed, correct any key play, install new corks and felts when needed, learn how to regulate keyheight and action, maybe even give the body a nice bath.....and lastly know how to troubleshoot unexpected problems which pop up....more power to ya. Go for it. You will need to invest a couple hundred dollars on some of the minimal tools and materials for such an endeavor, but it IS fun as heck to learn how.

But it isn't really necessary to do spot-lubing and pad cleaning on a regular basis, IMHO. Unless there is no tech, or no good tech, anywhere nearby or kinda nearby.
 
#15 ·
It depends on what the muck is made from.

If it's greasy or oily, alcohol or water are pretty useless. Lighter fluid or equivalent is excellent.
If it's gummy, then alcohol is better. Acetone is better still, but is likely to also remove any surface treatment of the pad.
If it is sugar, then the above are pretty useless.
If it is mouth muck, left behind from saliva, then water with a surfactant (detergent) is better.
If it’s the green verdigris, seemingly from some reaction between brass and carbon dioxide dissolved in condensate, or between brass and some residual tanning chemical in a poor quality pad, then alcohol or the above seems a lot better than lighter fluid.

If it is hard mineral deposits from repeatedly evaporated moisture that contained the minerals, then none of the above. A "weak" acid (vinegar or citric?) soak will do it (as with the same whitish deposits on mouthpieces), but may not do the leather much good. Vinegar (acetic acid) residue on the leather may also react with the brass, giving that green contaminant/deposit, verdigris (i.e. copper acetate). I don't know what citric acid might do. (It is used as a bras cleaner but I don't know what it makes in the process)

If it is polymerised vegetable oil, you have no hope. (Band-aid the stickiness with Teflon powder.)

Of course the muck is often more than one of the above.
 
#18 ·
It depends on what the muck is made from.

If it's greasy or oily, alcohol or water are pretty useless. Lighter fluid or equivalent is excellent.
If it's gummy, then alcohol is better. Acetone is better still, but is likely to also remove any surface treatment of the pad.
If it is sugar, then the above are pretty useless.
If it is mouth muck, left behind from saliva, then water with a surfactant (detergent) is better.
If it's the green verdigris, seemingly from some reaction between brass and carbon dioxide dissolved in condensate, or between brass and some residual tanning chemical in a poor quality pad, then alcohol or the above seems a lot better than lighter fluid.

If it is hard mineral deposits from repeatedly evaporated moisture that contained the minerals, then none of the above. A "weak" acid (vinegar or citric?) soak will do it (as with the same whitish deposits on mouthpieces), but may not do the leather much good. Vinegar (acetic acid) residue on the leather may also react with the brass, giving that green contaminant/deposit, verdigris (i.e. copper acetate). I don't know what citric acid might do. (It is used as a bras cleaner but I don't know what it makes in the process)

If it is polymerised vegetable oil, you have no hope. (Band-aid the stickiness with Teflon powder.)

Of course the muck is often more than one of the above.
Nice list, very nice.

"Polymerized vegetable oil" - How does that accumulate on a pad? Eating too much fried food before playing?
 
#16 ·
I would suggest you to to take it to t he service center and they can actually help you in getting rid of the problem,Sometimes we do not take care of the policies and lose the warranty by going against it.So yeah you better check it through the professional and than learn how to actually maintain it that will help you mate.
 
#17 ·
Thanks Gordon,

Its the "fine" stuff that probably is greenish, that's in the seat groove itself. Nothing widespread really. The thing is "contact time"....if you use a q tip and swab quickly, it doesn't make much of a dent. If you let any cleaner sit on the surface or do repeat applications, you risk soaking the pad underneath and/or the pad surface treatment mentioned.

so what's the swat team solvent we're looking for (quick swab)? I have to believe its lighter fluid, or, some old school cleaning product. The kind with the 'bad stuff' in it I have a couple of those around from a long time ago, incl something called Sheila Shine (?!?).. it smells like its got the solvent/cleaner mix in it.

anyway, good info. I think a big factor is taking the key off to clean it so you can get at where it matters most.
 
#22 ·
I'd really like to be brave enough to do some simple dissasembly and get some good cleaning in there. Im pretty handy in nearly all other things (once rebuilt/replaced a head on a volvo single handedly), but messing with my horns in any way scares me.

can anyone give me a couple of places or keys that are easy / simple/ not likely to get complicated?

the horns are all in very good condition overall so not likely to fall apart while working on them. But Im always leary of spring breaking or screws stripping or losing things..ugh. but really, to do cleaning well you have to get at the pads, etc better. also keeps it from going all over the horn.
 
#23 ·
For starters:

Try the neck key, and High D, D# & F keys

Take a good look to work out which order is probably best to take them off.

Don't interchange pivot rods when you put them back.

Then try the thumb lever, side Bb & side C keys.

Perhaps then Eb & low C keys.

Perhaps the G# lever.

Note: "keys" have pads on them. "Levers" do not have pads but are linked to keys.
 
#24 ·
For starters:

Try the neck key, and High D, D# & F keys

Take a good look to work out which order is probably best to take them off. Don't interchange pivot rods when you put them back.

Then try the thumb lever, side Bb & side C keys. Again, don't interchange pivot rods or point screws. (If any key has point screws, rather than a rod, and you choose the right one, then you probably need only take one of them out.)

Perhaps then Eb & low C keys. Again if point screws are used, don't interchange them.

Perhaps the G# lever.

Note: "keys" have pads on them. "Levers" do not have pads but are linked to keys.
 
#29 ·
O.K. so when someone asks a maintenance question, the only answer is 'take it to a tech'...usually delivered by a 'non tech'.
I'll sink a couple of grand into buying a couple of vintage back-ups to cover any down time.
I wasted part of my youth taking motorcycles apart with my buddies and putting them back together,
I should have simply put the petrol in and left the rest to the local garage.

Thanks for the advice.
cheers, Mark.
 
#30 ·
O.K. so when someone asks a maintenance question, the only answer is 'take it to a tech'...usually delivered by a 'non tech'.
That was far from the only answer given on this thread (go back and read it). And I guarantee you any good tech will tell you that unless you know what you're doing, and assuming you want it done right, the best fix for a saxophone is to take it to a tech. I'm not talking about swabbing out the horn or wiping it down, or putting a spring back in place. But when it comes to changing pads, leveling tone holes, adjusting keys, doing an overhaul, etc, if you want the BEST result, take it to a reputable tech. A 'non-tech' will almost certainly just mess it up.

I'm talking about saxophones, not motorcycles, cars, trucks, and other less-important things. But nowhere did I say there is anything wrong with providing 'how to' info here for maintaining your horn yourself, if that's what you want to do. I'm only speaking for myself and anyone who doesn't want to spend the time learning how to do it right.
 
#32 ·
Well we're all lucky that we've got you patrolling the 'Sax Repair, Maintenance and Modification' forum offering such sage advice..
What advice? I'm not offering advice, I'm stating the fact I'd rather spend my time playing the horn than working on it, and when I do get it worked on I want someone who knows what they are doing. That's all. You're welcome to do whatever you want.

I'm glad you're patrolling the forum singling out anyone who disagrees with you. Evidently we aren't allowed to state our opinion on here?
 
#34 ·
Okay, Im going to wade in a bit as well.

First, I, like Gordon, turn most peoples saxes around pretty quickly, most times within an hour of having met the person for the first time.

There is a difference between doing it yourself and getting a tech to do it. That is just common sense, a tech does it all day every day, 300 odd days a year, upwards of a few thousand instruments a year, where as you may do it once.

A tech has the tooling and spares to make this easily accomplished.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top