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Super 20 Question.....Hard to Regulate?

2K views 19 replies 7 participants last post by  GT 
#1 ·
I'm considering looking at a Super 20 tenor and I read the following comment on the Saxquest website..........

"Kings can be especially difficult to regulate correctly, especially in regard to the left hand spatula keys."

Does the Super 20 gang agree/disagree? Is this something that an average competent tech can take care of or is regulation truly hard to get right?

Many thanks!

George
 
#2 ·
I disagree.
Unless that comment was more focused toward the Zephyr models which can take a little more time to get a light C# pinkie touch.
The Super 20's with updated pinkie table are no harder than any other, at least that's what my tech tells me.
But even the Zephy models are pretty straight forward for even an average tech.
 
#6 ·
I disagree.
Unless that comment was more focused toward the Zephyr models which can take a little more time to get a light C# pinkie touch.
That's a separate issue from holding regulation (i.e. the horn staying in adjustment). That's a spring tension adjustment issue, and once a competent tech lightens the spring tension on the low C# (and adjusts the tension on all the LH platter keys), they will not need adjusting for a long time, maybe even years. I had the spring tension on my Zephyr's spatula keys lightened last summer, and they still operate just as light and slick as the day I picked the horn up.

From my experience, a King Zephyr will hold regulation just as well as a Super 20, considering that starting around 1950, they're basically the same horn anyway in build quality and dimensions.

I think the impetus for this discussion may have been a conversation I had with a member in a recent thread I started about left-hand Selmer spatulas in which he claimed that his vintage Selmer held regulation better than his vintage Zephyr. I still think this is a myth, however, and probably had more to do with the intonation tendencies of his 1945 Zephyr, which is from an era of King production which can still be a little dodgy intonation-wise. But most Super 20s and Zephyrs from the 1950s will have excellent intonation when they're set up right; and will not need to be adjusted any more often than a Selmer SBA or Mark VI.

The mythology of the SBA and Mark VI is very strong, and can cause folks to believe things about them that may be just that...myths.
 
#7 ·
I don't believe the OP asked about holding regulation, rather the difficulty in regulating correctly, especially in regard to the left hand pinky spatulas.
A Super 20 with BA style pinky table would be easier to regulate than a King Zephyr which has a very different pinky set up and completely different Low B, Low Bb set up.
I think it is possible that the S20's and Zephyrs around 1950+ share the same body tube and key guards, but the S20 has some nice refinements that seperate it from the Zephyr.
The pinkie table for one and the linkages to low B an Bb which don't have the rollers as are on the Zephyr.
Add to that the improved octave mechanism and more sculptured side keys and you have essentially a different horn. (plus there's the bling, additional engraving, underslung neck, possibly a silver one at that).
Both are excellent, pro horns and I have both a 51 Zephyr and a 61 Super 20 both cleveland horns and both great sounding horns, but they are different.
I also recently sold both a 48 and 59 Zephyr that are also great horns.
 
#8 ·
I've owned about a dozen Zephyr tenors and about half a dozen Super 20s so yeah, I know about them. What you're talking about are cosmetics and keywork, which are superficial to the way the horns blow and sound. I am talking about fundamental similarities in construction and can tell you that they are essentially the same horn in this way starting from around 280,000 on. Plus, I don't think it's that much harder to regulate a Zephyr's spatula than a Super 20's (though maybe a tad bit). I've had a couple Super 20s that had pretty tight action on the spatula keys that had to be lightened (the later Eastlake examples tend to suffer from this moreso than earlier ones). Now this might have been a function of age and lack of use, and might not have been the case when these horns were new, but then that might be true for some of the Zephyrs I've owned as well.
 
#9 ·
If keywork is different then construction is different.
The Low B, Bb set up is vastly different and therefore different to regulate. (simpler)
Which is the basis of this thread not the similarities of two horns.
One look at a S20 next to a similar vintage Zephyr will show instantly the differences in these regards.
To call them the same horn is too simplistic.
If you have owned both Zephyrs and S20's from the 50's you would see this.
So instead of touting off about how many Kings you have owned and trying to come off as some kind of expert, you may want to answer the OP's question which was whether King Super 20's are especially hard to regulate and specifically the pinky table.
They are not.
 
#14 ·
I'm talking about the bore geometry, which is the biggest determinant of how the horns you're comparing will blow and sound. And if you're talking Super 20s and Zephyrs from the 1950s, they ARE the same in this most important respect--period. Minor differences in the keywork are just window dressing when you're considering this fundamental similarity. But it's not just my own observations that have led me to this conclusion. My tech, who happens to work for one of the most well-known sax shops in the world, also says they're the same in this respect, with the most significant difference in his mind being that one has a brass neck and one has a silver one (and since he actually prefers brass necks, that's why he plays Zephyrs).

Look, I had a very expensive ca. 1955 Super 20 that I sold because it simply didn't sound as good as my Zephyr from the same period. So I sold it and kept the Zephyr, which is a magical horn that has that King something in spades. (My tech also agrees, saying that my Z blows better than some very $ full-pearls S20s that he's had on his bench.) Like Bruce says, all horns are different, so as with the Mark VI, you can also have a 10M that plays better than several other 10Ms, or a Zephyr that blows better than a horn that cost $4,000 more.

But I'm with Bruce. A Zephyr is not any harder to adjust than a Super 20, and both will hold regulation just as well.

And I'd rather not argue with another King afficionado. As far as I'm concerned, we've both seen the light.... :)
 
#10 ·
All horns are different and each has its own special needs. Sure, an S20 may need certain things that a Yamaha doesn't but a good tech will sort it out. I have never found my Zephyrs to be all that quirky and any S20 I have worked on has been the same. Sometimes with these older horns a tech may have upset some action due to the inability to spend the proper time.
 
#12 ·
Did you have an opportunity to try it? If so did you notice the light weight, excellent ergos, and the tone top to bottom? Mine was in poor condition (old pads, clanky keys, tarnished neck, etc) when I bought but yet it still played and sounded wonderful. It just needed a little love is all.

sent on the move....
 
#19 ·
I just bought a Super 20 tenor, series 1-A, from Saxquest. The overhaul they did is outstanding. All of the key heights are spot on for an even scale and they used proper pads with medium, flat resos. If they set-up all their Super 20s like that, it's worth the extra money to buy from them and have a "turn key" horn that is gig ready.
 
#17 ·
I see the horn you speak of with the metal resonators. I'm not sure if all s20's have metal resonators but mine does not. I think the plastic resonators on mine makes it play exactly how I like it - darker and warmer.
But wow it appears Saxquest has a good inventory of s20's to choose from. Have fun doodling on all of them.

sent on the move....
 
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