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Cryogenics Revisited

11K views 55 replies 21 participants last post by  maddenma 
#1 ·
Ok, not to start a war, but as I was wondering if freezing a horn with liquid nitrogen (cryogenics) had the same effect to the brass as work hardening (yes, I go curious places in my mind) I came across this study from Tufts.

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/musicengineering/research/cryo/cryo_paper_asa.pdf

Telling lines from the summary: The scatter of data (i.e. variation from trumpet-to-trumpet) overshadows any difference seen between the treated and un-treated trumpets. Further, variations seen between players and between sessions for the same player are also much greater than the variations found between the treated and untreated trumpets. Although it is possible that the cryogenic treatment does have an effect on the timbre of an instrument, the effect is subtle at best when compared to other determining factors.

FWIW, I do know the person at Yamaha that holds the patent for this. Probably fair to say he's not particularly aligned with this view. However, this is an available thing to do, some people swear by it, and it makes me curious if the point of the freezing is returning the metal to the same condition as a work-hardened state in a consistent way.

I have yet to find something that compares the crystalline structure of work-hardened brass vs cryogenically treated brass. Anyone have some thoughts on where to look?
 
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#49 ·
It's interesting that Googling reveals that use of cryo is well established industrially for its proven effects on steel, but I could find no reference to any industrial use involving brass, only the gullible wind instrument market.
And industry seems fairly good at considering costs alongside effectiveness.

And I have yet to hear of any qualified metallurgist say anything other than that brass could not be affected by cryo treatment.
 
#50 ·
I remember that, at the time the first of the threads on cryogenics was published, at least a couple of qualified members explained why it works with steel but not with brass.

Does it really matter though?

Even if one could prove with absolute certainty that it doesn’t anything there will always be a group who will disagree on account of what they hear or think they hear and claim that even if an audience cannt hear it they can therefore it changes the way they play, like with any other vibrationalist thesis.
 
#51 ·
I have, in the past, commented on how cryo could relieve residual stresses in brass. Whether residual stress has an effect on the horn is up to others.
 
#52 ·
If removing "residual stresses" effects even a slight change in the interior geometry of a saxophone, then it is possible that a perceptible change in how it plays may take place. On the other hand if there is no dimensional change, simply "relaxing" the walls of the instrument cannot effect how the instrument plays since studies have shown that no coupling takes place between wall vibrations and the vibrating column of air.
 
#53 ·
My motto is that

" if it is sold for a lot of money by people who have not an iota of interest on providing you with studies on why this should work, then it is most probably a con"

Cryogenics is now applied to people too. Dip yourself in liquid nitrogen and (if you don't die )you will live a better life when you re-emerge.

They say... but they don't have to prove it. They can, once again, just say it.

The problem is that this time you are playing with human life and you might lose much more that JUST a bundle of cash!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/06/u...side-nyt-region&WT.nav=inside-nyt-region&_r=0

If this wouldn't be tragic it would be ridiculous.

Note how the same vague claims are made about treating people as treating brass. NO evidence is provided in both cases. They can make the claims, make you sign a waiver, and them whatever happens is your problem.

cryogenics is fraud, for people as well as for instruments.



On the plus side you can get in there with your horn and do two for the price of one! How about that?



Who knows maybe they can freeze with your saxophone when you die and then you come out, one day, when they would find out a way to defrost you, a better player!

In Victorian times much the same claims were made with electric stimulators an all purpose remedy for all which was sold for anything and from anyone.
 
#56 ·
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