Sax on the Web Forum banner

Cryogenics Revisited

11K views 55 replies 21 participants last post by  maddenma 
#1 ·
Ok, not to start a war, but as I was wondering if freezing a horn with liquid nitrogen (cryogenics) had the same effect to the brass as work hardening (yes, I go curious places in my mind) I came across this study from Tufts.

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/musicengineering/research/cryo/cryo_paper_asa.pdf

Telling lines from the summary: The scatter of data (i.e. variation from trumpet-to-trumpet) overshadows any difference seen between the treated and un-treated trumpets. Further, variations seen between players and between sessions for the same player are also much greater than the variations found between the treated and untreated trumpets. Although it is possible that the cryogenic treatment does have an effect on the timbre of an instrument, the effect is subtle at best when compared to other determining factors.

FWIW, I do know the person at Yamaha that holds the patent for this. Probably fair to say he's not particularly aligned with this view. However, this is an available thing to do, some people swear by it, and it makes me curious if the point of the freezing is returning the metal to the same condition as a work-hardened state in a consistent way.

I have yet to find something that compares the crystalline structure of work-hardened brass vs cryogenically treated brass. Anyone have some thoughts on where to look?
 
See less See more
#2 ·
This is the forbidden topic of SOTW.
The official position is that material does not make a difference.
Some people claim it makes or it can make a difference. These are usually dismissed as "believers" or subject to false perceptions.

I have yet to find something that compares the crystalline structure of work-hardened brass vs cryogenically treated brass. Anyone have some thoughts on where to look?
I raised the same question a few times, but did not have an answer. My actual question is about the crystalline structure "age hardened" brass, if there is such a thing. The issue is present in steels, and I could find some non-music related information. Probably some members here could help better than my source.

The only reference I could find about crystalline structure, regards copper bells for trumpets trombones, but it could be old marketing hype. Interesting anyway.
http://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle20.html
 
#4 ·
Which pretty much seems to say, yeah, it's about the same thing.
 
#5 ·
I think it would work great if you were trying to slice someone with your horn.

It can be done to a bari, but it won't turn it into a bari-ton.

If I had an army fitted with tempered steel swords that was trying to beat another army with non-tempered steel swords, I would feel like I had and advantage.

Just like when I put my hot dish in the fridge after coming out of the oven.

The shelve I put it on is not going to shatter.

It's not going to make my tone any better than a well selected mouthpiece.

And it definity won't make me a better player.
 
#7 ·
So, it's fair to say you could possibly kill an army with a cryogenically-treated bari, and you could use it as yet another anal-retentive substitute for swabbing out your tenor neck and see some real value in the decline of the bacteria population. However, maybe it's just me, but I see less enthusiasm for its effectiveness is making one into a Charley Parker. Is that fair?
 
#9 ·
And you were. :mrgreen:
 
#12 ·
This is a great photo! Really can visualize how you end could up with the copper lattice we call red rot after the zinc goes away.
 
#11 · (Edited)
They used to say that the cryogenic treatment relaxed stresses in the brass that occur from the manufacturing process which was supposed to then allow the brass to vibrate more freely.
I'm not sure if cold treatment could do this (?)

People notice a difference, after the treatment to a sax, but it also involves a full overhaul. With a new set of pads fitted you should notice an improvement.
 
#14 ·
Whether or not cryo allows brass to "vibrate more freely" is a moot point if the vibrations of the sax walls are too small to impact the sound or response in the first place, which--according to a lot of very good research going back at least 100 years--they are (too small). Recent experiments with very thin tubes forced to vibrate several of orders of magnitude more than any vibrations that happen during actual playing show that the impact of such vibrations on the sound are extremely minor, and the changes in tone quality are evident only on a few notes. So it certainly seems that cryo is just snake oil. This, BTW, may not be true for brasswinds, where vibrations of the bell of the instrument have been shown to have a noticeable impact on the sound. But saxes and trumpets are different animals.

Anybody who thinks musicians' perceptions (no matter their level of proficiency) are in the least reliable needs to read Chris Berdick's book: "Mind over Mind: The Amazing Power of Expectations". Expectations not only change our perceptions, they actually change physiological processes on which those perceptions are based. Here is a link to a pdf of the book. Read it and then let's discuss whether MK VIs really are better...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/49552277/Chris_Berdik_-_Mind_over_mind.pdf
 
#18 ·
To answer the op directly, cryo has none of the effect of work hardening. It can reduce failure at stress concentrator features in very highly stressed parts. This has nothing to do with work hardening, a dislocation entanglement phenomenon which increases ultimate strength. Cryo is more dislike work hardening than like it.

10 extra minutes of practice will have a greater result.
 
#19 ·
To answer the op directly, cryo has none of the effect of work hardening. It can reduce failure at stress concentrator features in very highly stressed parts. This has nothing to do with work hardening, a dislocation entanglement phenomenon which increases ultimate strength. Cryo is more dislike work hardening than like it.
And what about the ageing effect, if there is any (apart from the red rot)?
 
#24 ·
1. Approximately .1% lead in all saxes. It is not illegal.

I had an analysis done on brass dies for pasta making machines. Yes, lead was there. It is not illegal. Food goes through those at elevated pressure and there is some heat. Still accepted.

2. There will be differences depending on alloy and the working of the alloy. Structure is very hard to perfectly control Even aircraft 6061 aluminum has obvious structure differences depending on processing.

3. To no significant degree.

I suggest reading a materials science book, reading articles online by credible sources.

I have no doubt that spending the same amount of time practicing would make more difference than any difference in brass alloys in saxophones.

An ironic thing is that these questions will be asked again by other posters numerous times over the next year. Products that have to do with activities that folks are passionate over end up being surrounded by hype and false claims over the smallest details, most likely started by some snake oil guy with a service to sell and marketing baloney by manufacturers. It is such a waste of brain power to focus, or even think about those things.

Think of clothes washing detergent. Notice all the "new and improved" claims over the next year. We all know it is bogus. So isn't the marketing talk about different brass alloys, aging, cryo, color of lacquer, secret polymers, and all the other minutia out there.

Facts:

Different model saxes, from the same and different manufacturers, can sound very different from each other.

Different necks with different geometry can profoundly change the sound of a sax.

Different saxes of the same model and age can sound somewhat different.

We cannot determine of going to a wholly different metal for the entire saxophone really impacts the sound or not: all evidence is anecdotal and based on small, statistically insignificant sample sizes. I hate to say this because my all silver horn sounds different from my "identical" bronze. But I don't know why, for sure, and neither do you.

My time is wasted writing this because the majority of folks will fall for the next dumb line they hear from a sales guy.

Setup, regulation, and well sealed pads are paramount (though a great player seemingly can overcome all of these).

LIkely true: Spending the time practicing would make every reader of this a better player than spending the same amount of time thinking, theorizing, worrying, and writing about the listed items above (outside of the last statement about setup).

Highly suspect:

All claims from manufacturers regarding special metals, special alloys, etc.

All claims from vendors claiming special processes that improve the sound of a sax.

Fiction:

All dogmatic statements about different sounds from lacquers, platings, metal treatments (including cryo).
 
#26 ·
I suggest reading a materials science book, reading articles online by credible sources.
Ah, but it's far more fun to discuss it here without ever cracking a book. :)

The original question was simply about a comparison between the difference in the material between the two scenarios -- work hardening vs. Cryro-treatments. Purely a bit of curiosity on my part. I think we established it's not the same thing. Not polar opposites, but as different as an apple and and orange in terms of its effects on the metal.

So, if folks want to go down the religion path from here, please feel free, but I have the answer I was looking for. :)
 
#28 ·
I have edited the percent of lead, it has been brought to my attention that alloy used in sheet is far lower than that used in machining.

I am looking for further research on cryo to see of changes since my work with an aerospace company years ago.
 
#30 ·
As in many threads before on this and other fora (automotive, musical, hi-fi) this theme comes periodically back and is mostly fuelled by rumours spread by those who sell this invariably expensive " treatments".

The data on structural crystal changes in brass may or may not be available to you ( I believe that you can purchase some articles such as this http://pic.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/02/13/0954406212438804.abstract where you can find more research) .

Research appears to have shown an improved ELECTRICAL performance (apparently beneficial in the world of welding) but all even remotely serious research on sound effects ( not sponsored by the company which offer cryogenic treatment) has been already carried out by serious scientific institutions on brass instruments with the goal to assess if there was any detectable influence on sound emission and said research hasn't shown any detectable influence which would be surpassing the natural variance among players and instruments.

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/musicengineering/research/cryo/cryo_paper_asa.pdf
http://www.acoustics.org/press/146th/jones.htm
http://www.isa.org/Template.cfm?Sec...aggedPage/DetailDisplay.cfm&ContentID=31452es

others have published webpages such as this on the matter, for you to evaluate conclusion and credentials

http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/cryo/CryoRant-20120328.pdf
 
#32 ·
I cannot read that one. Could you please write the citation so I may look it up?

Of the papers that I could view, they are weak in that they are not examining physical effects of the material. I believe that cryo can provide stress relief by virtue of driving a volume change (thermal expansion) and inducing a reverse residual stress at the grain level - such experiments have been done on engineering materials by many scientists specializing in neutron diffraction. Whether this has any influence on the musical properties is indeterminant.

It's too bad that people who seem to care about the matter, don't perform sufficiently revealing experiments.
 
#31 ·
I've got a limited background in heat treatment: a college course in heat treatment of steels, on-the-job dealings with manufacturing of steel and aluminum alloys, high level reviews of brass processing, and a specific investigation on the application of cryogenic treatment to gun barrels. That is, I know only enough to be dangerous.

I don't know of any reason to think that cryogenic treatment will do anything to the properties of the brass alloys used in musical instruments. You can:
  • soften brass by heating it above the recrystalization temperature (annealing)
  • stress-relieve it by heating it to below the recrystalization temperature
  • harden it by deforming it at room temperature (work hardening)
  • some alloys you can harden by cooling them down quickly and then holding for a time at an elevated temperature so that specific alloying elements can precipitate out (precipitation hardening).

In some steel alloys it can result in hardening, depending on the heat history of the part, but it works because steel has crystal phases that either don't exist in brass, or are formed under different circumstances than they are in the few brass alloys that have them.

BTW, the bottom line for any fellow gun enthusiasts is that you won't get any improvements in accuracy (which is the most common claim) from it.

EDIT: I just read the Mike Meier article linked above by milandro. I share his obvious dissatisfaction with the published claims of some cryo-treaters, but his discussion of the metallurgy misses some key points. There are steel alloys that finish the martensite transformation below room temperature, and it's not uncommon to have retained austenite concentrations of 20% or more in a finished part. Cryo-treating such parts will certainly cause the retained austenite to finish the transformation to martensite, resulting in increased harness and brittleness, elevated tensile stresses at the surface and the risk of distortion. Tempering the part will reduce the brittleness and stresses, with further risk of distortion that might be managable with appropriate care. One of the more dramatic applications of this was in the manufacture of large battleship guns, which required maxumum strength to handle high pressures and maximum surface hardness to extend bore life. It really does work, given the right alloys and the right process.

But not brass.
 
#34 ·
Dig Walt Disney out too while you're at it. Maybe he'll feel like playing a solo.
 
#35 ·
how about does cryogenics or annealing help protect against

Neferti
03-09-2003, 09:15 AM
A couple of months ago a woman comes on stage picks up the cowbell and starts wailing away at it. She drops it at one point and starts hitting mic stands and other assorted items in her passion for the music. At this point I pick up my sax and back as far away as I can. The next tune the trombone player/lead singer picks up his 2000 dollar horn to play some horn parts and it won't play. The top curve is totally dented in from this woman wailing on it with a drum stick.
 
#38 ·
He was cryoing all right...two grand's worth of tears. I think if that happened to my horn I would end up in the slammer for assault and battery.
 
#37 ·
Neferti
03-09-2003, 09:15 AM
A couple of months ago a woman comes on stage picks up the cowbell and starts wailing away at it. She drops it at one point and starts hitting mic stands and other assorted items in her passion for the music. At this point I pick up my sax and back as far away as I can. The next tune the trombone player/lead singer picks up his 2000 dollar horn to play some horn parts and it won't play. The top curve is totally dented in from this woman wailing on it with a drum stick.
I hope he took a cymbal and beat out a tune on her face with it, and then threw her in the bar's ice machine for a bit of cryogenic treatment on the place where her brain should have been.
 
#39 ·
Physical abuse just isn't funny. Sorry to be a buzz kill on a lame joke, but I know too many people with brain injuries.
 
#47 ·
The effect comes from the anisotropy of the grains - consider the TCE with respect to orientation of a single crystal.
I still fail to see how cryo treatment can result in stress relief in the manner you say, and would really like to understand it. Can you provide a reference to the studies? I have access to a lot of technical journals through my employer.
The coefficient of thermal expansion is unaffected by grain orientation; it's the same in all directions even in a single grain. It's geometrically impossible for it to be otherwise.
 
#48 ·
The coefficient of thermal expansion is unaffected by grain orientation; it's the same in all directions even in a single grain. It's geometrically impossible for it to be otherwise.
It is not the same in all directions for all single crystals (ex. HCP).
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top