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[Wikipedia]"Phosphor Bronze saxophones sound noticeably darker"

6K views 28 replies 16 participants last post by  bakkiemetkoekie 
#1 ·
Do we have any Wikipedia editors around here who can fix this? I don't know how to tackle this over there, so maybe someone here can help...

The subjective (and even contradictory) references are misused and misleading, and should be either replaced by real studies or deleted.

Article: Phosphor bronze Section: Musical instruments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_bronze#Musical_instruments
"Phosphor bronze is used in some metal wind instruments (e.g., the A992 alto saxophone manufactured by Yanagisawa).[3] A saxophone made from phosphor bronze is heavier than one made from brass, due to its higher copper content, which gives greater mass. Phosphor bronze saxophones have distinctive, reddish-orange hues, which look different to the yellow-gold color of standard lacquered brass. In addition to being more robust, phosphor bronze gives musical instruments tonal qualities[4] which are slightly different to those made from the usual brass alloys. For example, although their designs are identical in every way apart from the metal used, the Yanagisawa A992 and T992[5] (phosphor bronze) alto and tenor saxophones sound noticeably "darker" than the A991 and T991[6] (brass) versions. However, other variables may affect an instrument's tone colors (e.g., mouthpiece design and physical characteristics of the player).[7][8]"

Issues with references:
  1. Reference [4] is a dead link
  2. Reference [5] (link to Yanagisawa's T-992 webpage) actually says that model is more "brilliant", not darker, than Reference [6] (link to Yanagisawa's T-991 webpage), which contradicts the article text
  3. References [7] and [8] are essentially irrelevant and look like they've been inserted to try to add credibility to the article
Issues with text:
  1. "In addition to being more robust, phosphor bronze gives musical instruments tonal qualities[4] which are slightly different to those made from the usual brass alloys."
  2. "...the Yanagisawa A992 and T992[5] (phosphor bronze) alto and tenor saxophones sound noticeably "darker" than the A991 and T991[6] (brass) versions."
Prove it or lose it: as mentioned above, these statements are not backed up by any referenced fact.

I think it would probably be best to just delete those lines about acoustics, and leave the objective part about manufacturing. At most, there can be a line about "the acoustical effects are heavily debated on such internet forums as Sax on the Web" ... :)
 
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#2 ·
or maybe everyone just agrees that Phosphor Bronze DOES make the horn "darker" (and/or "more brilliant")?
 
#4 ·
Or maybe everybody knows Wikipedia isn't a credible source and is willing to determine on their own whether to buy bronze or brass.
 
#3 ·
I play a BW Phosphor Bronze Tenor which is a lot heavier than Brass Tenors I've played, as far as darker or brighter than Brass i'd say about the same. Saying that some horns are brighter or darker than others anyway. I had a SML/ B&S 2001 Tenor that was brighter than my BW, the same model BW in Brass sounds the same as the Bronze or so I've been told.
 
#23 ·
wikipedia is not better or worse than any book. The fact that anything is published there (or in printing) doesn't necessarily mean that there is any guarantee that any of it is true.

My favourite example are the publications on the flatness of Earth.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm

So someone says that Earth is flat and publishes a book or articles about it. Some say that Phosphor Bronze saxophones are: darker, brighter or whatever.

Some say this that or the other. Anyone can publish a book, anyone can write on wikipedia BUT wikipedia can be corrected by anyone and this is the BIG difference with the written word on paper.

Cyberspace, is not set in stone. The proof of anything is not in the fact that a source is there for reference and quoting wikipedia is no more veritable than just saying or writing the same things, but helps supporting a thesis, although it doesn't demonstrate it.

I play a BW Phosphor Bronze Tenor which is a lot heavier than Brass Tenors I've played.....
Incidentally, Phosphor " bronze" is not noticeably heavier than brass. They have a similar specific weight.

Sound specificity of any metal (or other materials) used to make any woodwind has yet to be demonstrated. I welcome serious contributors to these thesis.

Beliefs and suppositions are just that.
 
#7 ·
This is a problem with relying on WP as a source, actually. I actually find it a bit scary that it has come to be relied upon so heavily.

You can say it is a strength to cite sources, but the problem is.... what if those sources are misinterpreted... or in this instance, seemingly flat out contradictory to what the wikipedia definition states ?

IMHO, I will take resources which are prepared by professionals over wikipedia any day, thank you....
 
#8 ·
My guess is that many of the Wiki articles are prepared by professionals. And they may well be inaccessible without Wiki.

Re " A saxophone made from phosphor bronze is heavier than one made from brass, due to its higher copper content, which gives greater mass"
I rather doubt it! From http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html, the Specific gravity of brass is 8.4 to 8.7, and for phosphor bronze, 8.9. So there is almost nothing in it. It would almost cerainly be other factors that accouint for significant seight differences.

I reckon the entire Wiki entry should be scrapped.
 
#9 ·
Wiki cannot be considered a scientific source. There are too many cases where there are mistakes. Folks forget what Wiki is and begin to think that it is akin to scientific research papers printed by respected institutions or akin to accepted textbooks. Folks should be especially suspicious when it comes to matters of subjectivity, these sonic cause and effects issues about which you are posting.

If one wants to use Wiki then it should be as a starting point to be followed up with fact checking from accepted credible sources such as I described above.

Your suggestion is good - eliminate all statements about the difference of sound, and just say "some folks feel...."

But if you got that far, someone else would come along and lobby to change it back to a definitive statement.

I think a better course of action is to not care. Wiki is what it is. Lots of information, some right, maybe a lot right, some wrong, and a whole bunch somewhere in the middle.
 
#10 ·
I think a better course of action is to not care.
I like that - can I adopt that as my new life motto? :)

So, does anyone do any editing on Wikipedia, or know someone who would care enough to fix it?
 
#14 ·
#18 ·
As my old Signature said, laquer types do effect sound. Why wouldn't this wiki post be true? It is. Darker laq's\materials darker sound. Except if your talking about black paint which doesn't, im talking solid elements to the laq, solid material.





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#21 ·
As my old Signature said, laquer types do effect sound. Why wouldn't this wiki post be true? It is. Darker laq's\materials darker sound. Except if your talking about black paint which doesn't, im talking solid elements to the laq, solid material.
Perhaps you are being sarcastic. If so, then in written form you need to make it more obvious. If not....

In the light of well-established, well documented acoustic science, adn in light of reasonably rigorous double-blind testing your statement is simply nonsense. I suggest you read the plethora of iknformation on the topic in this from before repeating such nonsense. But sure, if you believe you car drives faster becasue it is red, then you will probably drive it faster. And for many peole, belief runs their lives. But belief is a long, long way from fact.

You state, "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: "it goes on"

Let those three words be true!
 
#19 ·
Yes, lacquer types affect sound, and if I shine a LED flashlight at a dark lacquer sax it sounds like light lacquer. But if I play a light lacquer with sunglasses on it plays like a dark lacquer. In a dark room it plays like black.

Red Ferraris are also faster than black ones.
 
#24 ·
All the talk about different brasses, certainly all garbage. I keep going back to my comparisons of Yani silver and brass necks: IDENTICAL sounding, as tested on 2 different Yanis.

The only thing that I cannot figure out is the large difference between my new Yani solid silver (9937) and my new bronze (992). It's a large difference, they might as well be two totally different saxes. Both have great intonation, both use the mp at the exact same position, as dictated by a tuner, both play perfectly, both look identical with a leak light. Yet the tone is very, very different. I love the 9937 but am getting rid of the 992, that's how different they are.

I still don't fully believe that it is the material. Since I am not a sax manufacturer, the reasons are not really important to me in any way, it's just my curiosity that I would like to satisfy. I'm tempering that curiosity and won't make any measurements or use any time in trying to nail it down. How a sax plays is how it plays. If I were not a man of science I would say "silver definitely sounds way different", an then go on to explain just how silver sounds. That's what most folks on forums would do - write anecdotal evidence as scientific truth, all based on a sample of 1! Reality is that it would take many samples, and serious analysis to get to the bottom of this. As far as I have seen, nobody on this or any other forum has done anything like that. In reality, everything written on this forum claiming some understanding of cause / aural effect relationships associated with different materials is pure speculation and really not worth anything.

I agree with much of what you say in your above post, Milandro.
 
#25 ·
I still don't fully believe that it is the material. Since I am not a sax manufacturer, the reasons are not really important to me in any way, it's just my curiosity that I would like to satisfy. .
Although the material may have no different sonical properties itself in regardad to woodwind acoustics, a different metal may behave differently in the manufacturing process, so it may form differently when bent around templates etc. If the corner where the tonehole chimney is raised is marginally more or less of a sharp right angle is different for two different materials, then this would explain significant differences in sound.
 
#26 ·
Cheers Ballad kid, likewise.

The only, possible, explanation that I’ve ever found of metal having some bearing on the sound of woodwinds is that on instruments with pulled toneholes the action of pulling those on different bodies made of different metals with different mechanical resistance and bending properties, might result in the base of the toneholes having a different (although slight) curvature in an area which could crucially influence sound.

This, if true, would of course, leave out all instruments made with brazed toneholes which are not subject to this possible variability.
 
#27 ·
Cheers Ballad kid, likewise.

The only, possible, explanation that I've ever found of metal having some bearing on the sound of woodwinds is that on instruments with pulled toneholes the action of pulling those on different bodies made of different metals with different mechanical resistance and bending properties, might result in the base of the toneholes having a different (although slight) curvature in an area which could crucially influence sound.

This, if true, would of course, leave out all instruments made with brazed toneholes which are not subject to this possible variability.
Great minds....

However: the brazed toneholes may well be hand or machine finished. Either way could cause slight variances.
 
#29 ·
I bought the S902 (bronze version)just three dys ago. The moment i blew the first three notes i thought this is what i want. Beautifull tone and terrific intonation.
Im not really a soprano man but this thing makes me want to play it the whole day.
I played the S901 some weeks ago and had not the same feeling as i have now.
I dont know about material but i do know about what is feeling good in my hands and mouth and how it sounds to me.
Im not in the position to buy my stuff new otherwise i would have compared the ones made from other materials (like the solid silver) and would have choose the best but i think
in this case i am very lucky.
As i play on older horns from the 50/60 i never would have thought i would ever buy/play a yani.
 
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