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Is this Conn, Martin or Beuscher? And is it worth fixing and/or selling this Silver TENOR

12K views 29 replies 17 participants last post by  Hornlip 
#1 ·
I bought this gorgeous tenor sax for scrap value and cleaned it up. Some keys don't move and it needs new pads. It looks like a Conn New Wonder with gold washed bell to me but the serial number is 5453 with a 1915 Patent date so how could that be? It says Supertone Bandmaster Elkhart In. I love my Conn naked lady from 1947 and wonder what this silver beauty would sound like if revived. What are your thoughts?

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#2 ·
Looks like a conn to me. Might be ok but that pinky setup looks tough to navigate.
 
#6 ·
What would really make this an easy diagnosis is to attach a picture with the serial number and patent, near the lower thumb rest.



+1

I've seen Conn stencils with that pinky setup, which resembles more of what Buescher and Martin were doing with their early horns.

The octave mechanism and side keys all look like they could be made by Conn.

Am I missing something or does this horn not have a bis Bb touchpiece? The bridge part of the key is there right next to the G# pad cup, and I see a pad cup for the bis Bb, but no touchpiece?
 
#3 ·
Not Buescher. Wrong pinky table. Might be a Conn, but the low C keyguard is wrong. Martin perhaps?
 
#9 ·
Weereas Supertone is known as the name of one of the Martin stencils, both Supertone and Bandmaster are known as Conn stencil names. "Supertone Bandmaster" was used for stencils in the Sears-Roebuck catalog; this line was discontinued in the 1930s. By the style of the keywork, including the LH pinky table, this is a Conn. The layout of the patent information and serial number, as well as the font used for it all scream Conn. Don't worry about the serial number: Conn stencils had numbering systems all of their own, which had nothing to do with the general Conn serial sequence.

See also here: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?129020-Supertone-Bandmaster-Alto
 
#14 ·
+1 on Conn
I have a McClellan Universal alto like it, similar year features, but with a five digit serial in the usual Conn pat # etc config. Same dumbed down LH pinkie table and deleted front F which might be worth swapping out for proper Conn parts if you wanted to keep it. Exact fit??

I also have a Supertone Bandmaster tenor that is a (less dumbed down) ser 3 Buescher TT, so at least one batch of Supertones wasn't Conn or Martin.
 
#19 ·
What you have there appears to be a Cavalier stencil from the early to mid '30s. Cavalier was a budget line below the Pan-American and had its own separate line of serial numbers.

Some of the Conn stencils didn't have the distinctive low C keyguard, maybe Conn or the distributor wanted to conceal its origins.

There's a rather plausible theory that (at least some of) the Cavalier instruments were actually made by the Elkhart Band Instrument Company, which was partly owned by the president of Conn. EBICo saxes were usually made with older tooling, which could explain the lack of a Bb bis key.
 
#20 ·
While this thread is quite old, I thought I would add anyway. The Supertone Bandmaster was produced under the Cavalier line in both brass and reeds. Under Pan American the Bandmaster Artist was stenciled. Both of these were Sears lines.
While this sax would be the equivalent of the 96M Cavalier which had the "mercedes" key guard, it is possible as an accomodation the type key guard used here was for this particular stencil. I have recorded several altos with the same issue. The Cavalier model on which thay are based the 92M has the "mercedes" key guard, but the Supertone Bandaster stencil does not. However, the Pan American line did include non "mercedes" key guards.
On the relationship with Elkahrt BIC, some do believe that this company and Pan American produced for each other. I have yet to see actual documentation for this, however based on designs, there was a close relationship.
Both Pan American and Elkhart BIC were started in 1917 and incorparated within 2 months of each other in 1919. Greenleaf and Beardsley are the primary investers in both as well as Conn and Buescher. Elkhart BIC was to Buescher as Pan American was to Conn.
 
#23 ·
Didn't catch the drawn tone holes and of course if it was a Martin they would be soldered. It is amazing to me how similar the horns are though, Conn and Martin must have shared some facilities/plans or stolen from each other. The horns are too close to identical to be coincidence.
 
#24 ·
I have been looking into these stencils for my Cavalier serial number study, and had Stocker look at some too. Those that have said both Martin and Conn, by virture of the Cavalier brand or line, have been involved with Sears on this are correct. There may have alo been others also over time. What I found interesting was tthe number of non Cavalier Supertone Bandmaster saxes that had serial numbers that fell with in the Cavalier version Supertone Bandmaster range so far identified. These are 5000+ and 7000+ serial numbers and had the curved number with and without "Low Pitch." This was new or news to me anyway.
 
#25 ·
Elkhart was a small town with one big industry and a lot of interlocking business interests. (It recently came out that Conn had "working control" of Buescher for 30 years - not legal ownership, but enough to keep them well behind Conn in sales and marketing.) So it's not surprising that Conn and Martin, or any other 2 firms, might have shared some operations.
 
#26 ·
Paulwl,
That information about the 30 year ownership in Buescher is interesting. I have documentation that shows Greenleaf and Beardsley with other bought Buescher in 1916, I also have documentation that Greenleaf and Beardsley incorporated Elkhart Band Instruments in September of 1919, just 2 months after they incorporated Pan American. The earliest trade references I find for Elkhart BIC are in 1918. The consolidation of Elkhart BIC with Buescher in 1929 seems to revolve around Indiana law as as both Beardsly and Greenleaf indicated no change in ownership. That same year the trades report Conn bought the Buescher plant.
What I don't have is the documentation that shows the continuing Conn or CD Greenleaf ownership in Buescher from 1930 to when the older Greenleaf son sold his Conn holdings to buy control of Buescher in the late 1950s when the younger Greenleaf son to the Conn helm. What do you have on that time period?
thanks
 
#27 ·
This is fascinating to me. Do you have the reference cites available?
 
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