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Thoughts on early (pre 305xxx) King Super 20 Tenors.

6K views 21 replies 14 participants last post by  zootspiker 
#1 ·
I'm interested to get some thoughts on the early (late 40's-approx 1950) king super 20 Tenors (as saxpics says the series 1-1a horns from inception to around 305xxx) My reason for asking is I've seen some of these earlier amber like finished horns for sale and demoed recently online - they sound quite different to me then the ballsy big bright sound that we think of with the KS20 sound and I'd like to get my hands on one to try. Does anyone own one/ played one and can give me some thoughts and/or advise on this serial range of this great vintage horn?
I'd appreciate it!
Thanks
 
#2 ·
I have a 300xxx. Lovely horn, full pearls deep patina; but to answer your question ( and granted I'm a weekend warrior to put it charitably) I find the sound darker more round than my 400xxx Siversonic (CLE) or 440xxx (Eastlake) Silversonic. It seems to require more breath support below low C than my later models.(I get a gurgle down low unless I use a more traditional mpc and throw a wine cork in the bell to break up the turbulence)

Finally, it does best for me with a low baffle large chamber MPC (For example a Barone Hard Rubber Vintage Comtemporary) I've tried Sakshama and PNR Guardalla's and no dice. Even Wanne Datta and Kali with their large chambers are a lot of effort down low.

So for me, It's a great horn for more traditional ballads and the later versions work well for a more modern Funk; R&B and Smooth Jazz sound (Like Wilton Felder).

Hope this helps.
 
#3 ·
I have a 300xxx. Lovely horn, full pearls deep patina; but to answer your question ( and granted I'm a weekend warrior to put it charitably) I find the sound darker more round than my 400xxx Siversonic (CLE) or 440xxx (Eastlake) Silversonic. It seems to require more breath support below low C than my later models.(I get a gurgle down low unless I use a more traditional mpc and throw a wine cork in the bell to break up the turbulence)

Finally, it does best for me with a low baffle large chamber MPC (For example a Barone Hard Rubber Vintage Comtemporary) I've tried Sakshama and PNR Guardalla's and no dice. Even Wanne Datta and Kali with their large chambers are a lot of effort down low.

So for me, It's a great horn for more traditional ballads and the later versions work well for a more modern Funk; R&B and Smooth Jazz sound (Like Wilton Felder).

Hope this helps.
That's a major misconception that many folks have--that early Super 20's are dark, when in reality most Kings generally play brighter than other vintage horns of the same period--Conns, Bueschers, Martins and Selmers. I even thought a Vol True II I had was pretty bright sounding for a vintage horn (i.e. basically like a King). Now I do think that by the Eastlake period, the horns are definitely brighter and crisper sounding than 1950s examples, but I think an early '60s H.N. White Super 20 can be just as "dark" as a 1950 example (i.e. neither one are dark relative to say, a Buescher Aristocrat).
 
#4 ·
Sorry I'm borderline with OT but read below...
I own a 385xxx Silversonic tenor, it's a really a beast... but too bright with Guardala MB, Sakshama MB, Vigilante NY, TW Durga, Ponzol Super (even with Hemke 2.5 reeds who are well known to be "dark").
Not because of mpcs (they are great mpcs : I'm using them on Selmer SIII silver neck (for 15 years) or with Selmer Model 26 Bigbore with good results) that's just 'cause it's a Silversonic !!! :)
Got awesome result with Brancher J27 + Hemke 2.5 reeds + 402 lig... lower baffle "cool down the horn" ;)

Hope it helps ;)
 
#6 ·
I had an early Super 20 - full pearls, key cup engraving, silver neck/brass bell. It was my first tenor at the age of 16. My sax mentor gave me a Berg Larsen steel 90/2 for it that turned out to be great. Of course at that time I was an idiot and traded it in on a new 1963 MK VI two years later. To the best of my recollection the horn with that piece on it had a wonderful projecting sound for the Top 40 music I was playing at the time. You might call it 'bright', but it was thick too. It was a well-used horn that I believe had been re-laqured. My folks got it at a pawn shop for $90. Suffice it to say that I didn't know what I had. But you can never go home! I tried another S20 a few years ago and didn't like it. I've been playing Selmers so long now that's all I can deal with.
 
#8 ·
I had a Super 20 Series 1A. Compared to my current Series 2 it was a little on the darker side and the little finger mech was heavy. The intonation in the palm keys was trickier. It had great response though .
My current 308...is a fantastic horn. On the bright side but fat and projects ..the intonation is predictable and stable. I've had a 1A , a 2 and a 3. The 2 is easily my favourite.
 
#9 ·
My experience has mostly been with sp20 altos. I'm trying to trade my #20k Semer BA alto with a friend for his #289k King S20 brass-bell. I've played several S20 altos, Silver-Sonic and brass-bell, from all of the eras. The thing is this; King Super 20s were designed with a certain type of resonator and pad in mind. Often these horns are set-up with resonators that are too big or not flat enough. The Kings were originally sold with small, flat resonators and that helped with that buttery sound and velvety attack. If you set-up a Super 20 like a Selmer, the sound is a tad brighter with a zippier attack.

I have yet to compare tenors but it seems like the majority of cats who played series 1, 1a and 2 Super 20s, often played metal Bergs. Yusef Lateef, Wardell Grey, Georgie Auld and so on. Griff played a Link TM. Mike Karn, who is a SOTW member, plays a Ted Klum piece that is like a Link STM.

Anyway, it's difficult to compare the different series of King (or any other axe really) unless they are set-up in a similar matter. I have noticed that Kings are more "mouthpiece friendly" than Selmers and Conns even more so. Kings have a type of resistance that hold up to higher baffle mouthpieces whereas a Selmer might sound to bright and edgy with the same mouthpiece.

Once I sort out my alto situation, I'll be looking for a tenor of a similar vintage. My hope is to find an early Silver Sonic tenor, like a #315k or so. I have never seen a series 1 or 1a Silver-Sonic except for Bird's alto, which may have been a custom, one off made just for Parker. Has anyone ever seen a pre #305k Silver Sonic?
 
#12 ·
I've seen a guy called simon cosgrove playing on youtube with an early king super 20. I love his sound and he comments that his ks20 has a much more mellow buttery sound that Barry describes. V. Interesting comments about intended setup. One of, if not my favourite player's sound is Wardell Gray.
 
#13 ·
I hear you and agree they are not in general dark horns. I just did a side by side comparison with the 400xxx silver sonic and 433xxx silver sonic and it sounded say less bright if not dark (I have a 89xxx MVI that's definitely dark)

I recently did a side by side with the 3 kings, mvi and a selmer sa 80 see II using a hard rubber otto link 7* What I found most interesting was that by using this low baffle big chamber mpc the differences in the horns were more pronounced; whereas the more modern mpcs tend (at least to my ear) to blur the distinctions.

I am currently very settled in with my 300xxx S20 using a 10Mfan Robusto 9; sub tones down low are very nice and with some practice getting my altisimo's to pop. Very even tone high to low. My teacher loves the tone.
 
#14 ·
I have a 379*** Cleveland S20 so early 60's I guess.
Not a bright horn by any stretch of the imagination.
But having said that, I don't use paint peelers on it either.
I use a Mark Spencer piece which has a sort of step baffle and a huge chamber.
Or an old long body link.
Ny 51 Zephyr is a tad brighter, but not a lot.
 
#16 ·
UPDATE: I now own a #295k Super 20 tenor AND alto, also a #298k. I guess these would be called a series 1-A. They have fat sounds and a quick response. I would say they are dark sounding horns but with lots of power and you can really push them more than any Selmer I've ever owned.
For anyone on a budget, these horns may be out-of-reach, but re-lacs can be had for a reasonable cost and so can Zephyrs. These horns must have a proper set-up to play in tune and to optimise that "King thing".
 
#18 ·
I hope Aaron Barnard doesn't mind me mentioning his work but I bought a mouthpiece from him and as I was looking at his site I saw two Zephyrs with an adapted neck to be underslung and a very nice KS20 tenor available. I wonder if I should enquire more about the zephyr its a 299k and I hear these are great and very similar to the KS20
 
#19 ·
Update on my previous posts. I now have a #198k tenor. It was set-up at Saxquest with medium, flat resos. It's the biggest sounding tenor I own. I have found that the Vandoren, V16 large chamber metal mouthpiece is a perfect fit. Also the Java T55 is a big, Gene Ammon-ish mouthpiece. Naturally, my vintage links also work well, as does my Phil-tone Tribute model.
These horns are a different animal than Selmers or most other horns.
 
#20 ·
I've been very fortunate to have had 2 Super 20's and my favorite (by far) was the 293,XXX Series 1A. It was insanely powerful, PHAT and rich down low but brightened up on the high-end. It was a lot of things, most very positive.
By comparison, my 205,XXX Zephyr was much, much darker.
I would just like to mention that I don't think that the Cleveland Super 20's have any issue with being inconsistent at all (I've never played an Eastlake tenor but have heard quite a few in live settings), but more so than other horns the Super 20's seem to have something which gives them each their own unique characteristics. I think that's one thing that makes them very special.
 
#22 ·
I agree. It is definitely more centered and a bit brighter than my 86xxx MVI; However when I compare it to my 400xxx Silversonic and 433xxx Silversonic the tone on the 300xxx S20 is more fulsome and darker yet still centered.

Mouthpiece update for the 300xxx: After a lot (A Lot! $$$) of experimenting I finally found a mouthpiece that that is bright enough for R&B and Funk yet still lets me play the full range of the horn without incident. It's the Theo Wanne Shiva(9). If I want (or need) to take it soft and dark I use the Barone HR Traditional/Contemporary (9). My Series IV Silversonics seem to handle the Guardala and Guardala clones just fine with the Eastlake being the most free blowing. If I had to sell all my horns
and keep only one it would be the Super 20 without question.
 
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