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Why can't Jason Lawton reproduce Geoff Lawton's mouthpieces?

31K views 31 replies 22 participants last post by  rhysonsax 
#1 ·
I am only speaking from what I have heard from James Carter in videos and other people, but what is it about Geoff's pieces that makes them so great? And why can't Jason reproduce the same thing.
For what it's worth I just bought a Lawton 8bb (Geoff Lawton) and it cost the same I got my saxophone for haha. It's just a fantastic piece, but what is it that makes them so hard for Jason to emulate?
Thanks
 
#2 ·
is this gong to reach the same conclusions that the thread on why Selmer cannot replicate the Mark VI has been reaching?

My money is on the obvious fact that Geoff Lawton’s mouthpieces were obviously made of the same metal that Mark Vi’s were made of...........what else?.........WWII spent cartridges is the word is the word!
 
#4 ·
Geoff was an 'old school' apprentice trained toolmaker/machinist who played saxophone in the post war days of dance and touring bands--an era that has sadly disappeared
During this time he met many professional saxmen from all over--remember most bands of that era had a sax section! He knew everybody, he knew also that saxplayers were having to compete with greater use of amplification in rhythmn sections so he started making mouthpieces fit for purpose--trial and error--trial and error till he got it right, he put the product before the profit and would scoff at the silly prices prices people pay for vintage m/p's which they immediately send off to be altered!
A similar character I suppose would be Bobby Dukoff.
Unfortunately when these guys shed their mortal coil the dedication and attention to detail they lovingly put into their craft goes with them.
 
#6 ·
FWIW, the best playing (Geoff) Lawton that I've ever had was one (8*B) that was touched up by Theo Wanne.
 
#8 ·
FWIW, I don't think Geoff's work was as precise as the new masters of today like Klum, Theo, and Navarro. Back in the 90's I owned a 6* and 7p that needed work by JVW to get them to play well. They were better than stock Bergs and Links of the day, but that's not saying much. They always looked great though.
 
#7 ·
Boppity is spot on. Geoff was a salty old dog who spoke his mind. In the years I knew him ..early 80's to early 90's he was constantly experimenting with materials and baffles. I always thought he got it right with the brass ones and I loved John Surman's sound on his earlier records...he must have had one of the first Lawtons because he was playing one on his bari in the mid 60's. I remember when Surman came back from a long break and had switched to a Berg...I mentioned it to Geoff and all he said was " Oh him" in his disdainful voice. When he saw me playing alto on my Brilhart Level Air he said " You'll ruin your embouchure " He complimented me often on my bari sound when I was playing his pieces though !

He had a set of Mark V1's...low A bari , tenor, alto and soprano...

Geoff was a real character and made a significant contribution to the dark art of mouthpiece making.

http://www.john-robert-brown.com/geoff-lawton.htm

Says here he they weren't brass...
 
#11 ·
No, the specials were bronze (bell-bronze is often marked on the boxes). The basic models were usually nickel silver. As far as I know both were plated in the same way.

This interview with Geoff Lawton http://www.john-robert-brown.com/geoff-lawton.htm quotes him as saying:

I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I even do the plating, because I could never be happy with someone else doing it. They either knock the mouthpiece, or the plating comes off, or they don't put enough plating on. When you're talking about gold, you're talking about money relative to something you're trying to sell for around $150. That's after the shops have taken their profit and the Government have taken their thing. Gold has been $850 an ounce! It's not that expensive now, but it always teeters around $500-$600. You can't put too much on ... Underneath the gold it's silver plated, which is also expensive. The base metal isn't brass, like most people use. I just use the best materials available. I use nickel silver, which is one of the most noble alloys you can get, 50% dearer than brass.

I don't use brass, I prefer to use something that's a more noble material. I have a complete range of mouthpieces made from surgical stainless steel. I defy any of the people who make mouthpieces to make one from stainless steel. .... Unless you were an absolute fanatic, and you'd done twenty years in a tool room, you wouldn't know how to start with stainless steel. Brass is like a boy's material. The big advantage, if you like stainless steel, is that it will last for ever. It will never need replating. It will never wear. You could drop it on the floor and you'd be very unlucky if it dents.

I also make a tenor mouthpiece in bell metal. Pure bell metal. It's extremely hard, but if you dropped it on a hard surface it would break, crack like a pot. It's similar to bronze, but contains more tin. Proper bell metal has 20% tin, 80% copper. Very similar to what Zildjian make their cymbals out of. But it's all a matter for the individual player.


Rhys
 
#18 ·
One of the things about Geoff Lawton is that he was always experimenting, varying the design and trying different materials. I've got a few of these more unusual models such as his 'Reflector' baffle pieces and the ICONs, which were made from a cast blank rather than machined from solid.

I spoke to Jason Lawton on the 'phone a few years ago. He was only making his father's standard models. As far as I know, he does that pretty well, but we won't be seeing any new ICONs, Long Window models, Refector baffles or whatever Goeff would have invented by now. Jason is a maker rather than an innovator.

Rhys
 
#23 ·
I know it's a bit off-date, but FWIW - I happen to have a Long Window Special 8 Star B tenor Lawton and it out-ran all I have ever tried and played... and there's one more thing: Lawton's not a one-trick-ponny! It's by far the best all-rounder I've stumbled upon in my 20+ years of playing. On my bari I use a Geoff 7 Star B, on the alto Jason 6 Star (plays like a dream, btw.), only on soprano I use HR and metal Selmers E. So, the Long Window's one fine innovation a lot of top-of-the-line modern mpcs sport nowadays...
 
#20 ·
I had an ICON a few years ago. Absolutely beautiful thing, most amazing finish I've ever seen on a mp. Just couldn't get it to play that well (probably me). Just as a matter of interest, what other mp would the ICON be closest to in terms of design?
 
#21 ·
I've got four ICON tenor pieces and one ICON alto. They are all different !

I don't know for sure, but I think that the ICON tenor piece was Geoff Lawton's response to the success of Guardala mouthpieces. The ICONs are usually (not always) high baffle pieces but with a bigger chamber than the standard Lawton B or BB models.

All of my Lawton 'unusual' models play well and the 'Reflector' baffle tenor piece is best of the lot.

Rhys
 
#22 ·
I have yet to find a Baritone mouthpiece that I like better than my JASON Lawton 7*B. And my Lawton tenor piece is only second to me NY Barone piece. Let's not be too prejudiced against the "new" guy. I'm sure that Geoff made plenty of pieces that weren't great, but people tend to remember only the stuff they like and the romantic figure of the innovator from years past has it's allure.
 
#30 ·
Geoff was a 'character'
he certainly was. He used to run a band. 7 or 8 piece I think. I depped in it a few times, on alto.

He featured me on a ballad once and it went well. So, at the end of the number, he goes to the mike, and happily tells the audience that my nice tone was because I played on his mouthpieces.

Chancer.... he knew well that it was a Meyer 6!!!, as just about the first thing he did when I got on the band stand was check what I was using.
 
#31 ·
Hey James Carter here and I have to say about the late Geoff Lawton is he was in the trenches of mouthpiece making for a longtime! As an apprentice for Berg Larsen before starting his own line of pieces. I've been playing his pieces since 1988 and many a maker has tried to convert me to no avail! Geoff was also on a perpetual search for THE Lawton mouthpiece and one of my last phone conversations, he told me that his ICON piece were his pinnacle! I'm still looking for them!
 
#32 ·
Welcome to the forum !

I am a huge fan and collector of Lawton mouthpieces and have put together a website on their history: Lawton Saxophone Mouthpieces History

The research I did found nothing about Geoff working for Berg Larsen and as far as I know he was born and spent his entire life in the North West of England (Manchester, Stockport, Macclesfield) many miles away from Berg Larsen's facility in Potter's Bar, London. Here is what I found out about how Geoff got into making mouthpieces:

He trained to be an engineering toolmaker and started playing the saxophone at the age of 15. He played saxophone semi-professionally in the Macclesfield area from about 1950. In his own words, Geoff used his tool room skills and “because the mouthpiece I was playing at the time wasn’t very good, I sort of made one and it worked well. Then friends wanted them and then bands in the Manchester area and the London area and it sort of developed like that.”
Geoff worked as a development engineer for the Friedland Bell Company in Stockport, experimented with existing mouthpieces and in the early 1960s started making “Lawton-Barton” metal mouthpieces in collaboration with Dennis Barton. The mouthpieces were made in Geoff’s garden shed at 11, Palmerston Road, Macclesfield, Cheshire.

Rhys
 
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