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Spring Loaded Bushings in the Rods

8K views 28 replies 12 participants last post by  Yamahaaltoplayer 
#1 ·
What is the benefit of having spring loaded bushings in your key rods? What does it give you when added to the regular blue steel needle spring system?
 
#2 ·
No impact whatsoever on the needle spring system.

It's designed to eliminate any play between the ends of the point screws in the posts and the interior of the rods that ride on them. It, as designed, would also automatically take up any slack between the point screw and the rod that might develop over time through wear. This can be a pain to deal with especially with headed point screws which can't be tightened in any farther without counter sinking.

It also means that the end to end centering ot the rods is done by post to rod end contact, not the point screw to rod interior as in conventional set ups. If there's play between the rod end and the post itself the rod can still shift back and forth longitudinally on the sprung cups in the rod. In a conventional system there can be (and frequently is) a visible gap between the rod end and the post, but any play is taken up by extending the point screw farther out fromj the post into contact with the rod end, eliminating end to end and lateral play. Aesthetically objectionable, but it works.

The issue with either kind of play, aside from irksome clicking and clacking, is the potential for a pad to leak as it seats differently each time it is used due to the play.

The problem, of play developing through wear, is hardly new and has been coped with by any semi decent tech for the past century plus without much drama.

Nice theory to preempt a problem which is already addressable through conventional means. Mainly, the "benefit" consists of having yet another thing to potentially screw up.
 
#5 ·
Perhaps more of a "not really a positive" than a "negative", unless it happens to be screwed up somehow. The system as applied to the low C/Eb mechanism sometimes causes a rubbing noise and minor friction which can be irritating. On the rest of the mechanism it just "is".
 
#6 ·
It is actually used as a 'selling point' for RSR saxophones, and in particular I've been looking at the 'Cantante' model soprano. It's referenced as a 'professional feature' in his Ebay ad. I don't know if any major manufacturers use them. I'm use to the straight rods (my Conn Chu) or point screws (what my Jean Baptiste mainly utilizes).
 
#7 ·
The system has been used in Selmers for 15 years or so - I guess it was inevitable that someone would think it worth copying.

I agree that it is an unnecessary solution. It adds complexity as well as its own problems and doesn't completely obviate wear.

I do know of at least one person that complained of a bent low C/Eb mechanism on a Selmer tenor that was attributed to the spring-loaded mechanism (in contrast to a solid rod).
 
#9 ·
I don't know - I've direct experience only with the Serie III, Ref 36/54 tenors.

Check the Selmer website. I recall that they used to include mention in their model specifications.

Regardless of on which models Selmer applied the "technology", how someone else executes the idea is a whole 'nother bag o' worms.
 
#10 ·
Had it on my own SA80 Series II soprano. The G rod assembly had a slight gap between the post and the rod and I would up disbling the spring loaded cup in the rod at one end to allow a conventional fixing of the rod and cups position via the point screws. No big deal to correct, but wouldn't have been an issue but for the spring loaded system.

Implementation by other manufacturers is something you'd have to address on a horn by horn basis but I sort of doubt they do it better and figure they might well do it worse. Absent careful implementation it could be a true drawback instead of just a not really useful frill.
 
#11 ·
Mike: Beware marketing hype. As you go through your saxophone life, you will read incredible claims by makers of saxophones, mouthpieces, ligatures, gig bags, stands, etc. If we fell for all that hype, we SHOULD be the world's best players. But it doesn't work that way. Every quarter, I sit down with the latest issue of WW&BW's catalog and laugh my xxx off over the hype. Amazing. DAVE
 
#12 ·
Many manufactureres of various types of instruments try to solve small and large problems through clever ideas. Sometimes it works, but like all evolution most fail. I'm still glad the effort is made. When CBS aquired (for a short time ) Steinway they tried to improve the piano by using teflon bushings in the flanges instead of felt. Great idea except the wood around the bushing would expand and contract making them bind. Eventually every one has been replaced by many different techs through the decades. All at the expense of the owners.
 
#14 ·
If this innovation didn't make things better, then why do they still use it?
Well, it got your attention, didn't it? Marketing. If a lesser, wannabe company can claim to employ the same technology as the class leaders, they can convince some part of the market that their product is equivalent.
 
#17 ·
I think Selmer has been doing this since around the late 80s on all of their models (someone correct me if it's wrong). AFAIK it saves them manufacturing costs. Apparantly the time it saves in key fitting outweighs the cost of making these parts. I agree that the springy rod for low C/EB is not good. I'm also not crazy about the idea in general. Although the hinge rods don't really do it when playing, if you hold the end of the rod and try to move it, it will usually move slightly. Not easily and only a fraction though.
 
#18 ·
I think Selmer has been doing this since around the late 80s on all of their models (someone correct me if it's wrong).
I would agree with that statement Nitai. I have an SA80 II that is at least 24 years old that is fitted with these.

I agree that the springy rod for low C/EB is not good. I'm also not crazy about the idea in general. Although the hinge rods don't really do it when playing, if you hold the end of the rod and try to move it, it will usually move slightly. Not easily and only a fraction though.
I must admit the springy rod on the low C/Eb is not the greatest of innovations. My SA80 II gets played on average 2-3 hours a day and I dont have any issues with the rod spring inserts or how they work.
 
#20 ·
I agree that probably the main reason for this "innovation" is to make manufacture cheaper. For this system, no time consuming adjustment of the seating of the pivot screws is necessary.

A small disadvantage of the system is that the spring-loaded slugs are always pressing firmly against the point pivot screws. That adds slightly to the friction in the pivot that the springs must overcome. Perhaps that is one reason that these Selmers are quite heavily sprung.

I initially thought these slugs may have an issue with corroding and binding, but pleasingly, I have never seen that happen.

But I consider the sprung Eb/Low C to be an engineeringly disgraceful concept. The alignment of the pivot tubes is critical for free running. This part of the instrument is quite exposed, and even a very small knock where the pivot tube does not have a supporting steel rod inside it, but a totally non-supporting coil spring, will destroy the alignment. And these keys frequently have some binding even ex-factory.
 
#28 ·
Are you sure there is no support post for High F#. There is on most saxes.

High F# lever probably has a cork that can possibly rub on the body after the lever is pressed.
Octave lever possibly squeeks as its linkage arm rubs against the neck key. (Try it without the neck on.)
Keys can also potentially squeek as springs rotate slightly in their cradles. Try oiling the tips.
The Bis pearl holder sometimes rubs and squeeks against the B or A pearl holder.
 
#29 ·
Gordon, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think it is any of those.

Selmer Paris altos don't have a guide for the high F#. I have recreated the sound in the middle of the key/lever travel so as to avoid hearing any sounds from corks or sticky pads. I never had the neck on. I've tried this with the springs unhooked. The pearl holders aren't touching.
 
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