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Things Ain't What They Used To Be: where are today's titans?

16K views 105 replies 39 participants last post by  lew lewis 
#1 ·
Without wanting to sound the usual moan that today ain't as good as the past (but then doing just that), I have been asking myself, honestly, who are today's jazz sax titans? I think there are some great jazz saxes out there, such as Joshua Redman, Christopher Holiday and Vincent Herring, but to these ears, there are just not many players that truly blow me away in the way that so many of yesteryear's greats did, the likes of Lockjaw, Griffin, Cannon, Marsh, Gonsalves, Webster, Golson, Coltrane, Berg, Brecker to name but a few. Even some of today's supposed greats focus too much on dazzling technique, without developing their own tone, sound and overall concept. Any suggestions?
 
#45 ·
It's a totally different society and time now. There are great players out there most of which have been mentioned but most people want to be hit over the head with musical entertainment, digital light shows, rock guitar and beautiful women swinging from ropes. So it's pretty hard to compete with that as a jazz musician. There seems to be just as many players but it's mostly in academia and sounds very technical without a lot of soul (to me). But there are still great players at the top of the heap. Making a living playing jazz is almost impossible so it's really in the background now as far as society goes and therefore has lost a lot of the excitement of when jazz was having it's day or at least competing with the pop/rock thing. I love it but it's quaint dinosaur music as far as most people are concerned and so there isn't a lot of room for jazz titans anymore except maybe teaching and gigs on the side. JMHO.
 
#55 ·
There are great jazz players and composers on the saxophone all around us, many with original sounds and concepts. I take issue with people who say there's no humor in Chris Potter's playing, or that he sounds like an amalgam of "complex" or "dissonant" lines thrown together. These statements are dismissive and lack insight. But even beyond Chris, there are many saxophonists who are making artistic statements that are just as deep as the giants of the past. The problem is that people start to "hero worship" their past idols of the music and make value judgements about how the current crop just doesn't measure up somehow. If you're really aware of what's happening, you'll know that this is not the case. Last word; to those who say "it's all been done before", I say you're simply lacking imagination.
 
#58 ·
The thing is, if you are not super-drilled in spitting out all possible permutations of all conceivable scales/chords at über up tempo, sheets of sound usually end up sounding like sheet.
 
#62 ·
Thought I'd throw some other names out there. I'm from NZ so these are guys I get to see semi regularly.

Nathan haines. Great muso and I hear a sense of joy in his playing. Also hear him taking and evolving harmonies from 70s rock into jazz. Not fusion. It something different.

Tim Hopkins. Technically good, has his own voice. Recently released a septet without bass. Interesting and original concepts of harmony.

Roger manins. Just a great player. Doing great things for jazz in NZ and jazz education.

On name players in the US:

Josh redman- phenomenal.

Chris potter - virtuoso but he doesn't speak to me.

James carter - I don't hear any melody in his playing, it sounds like scales.
 
#69 ·
I'm not trying to argue or get into a fight, but I feel there's a lot of bebop in Trane's sheets of sound stuff.....after all, that was before he was with Impulse. Coltrane also didn't call it "sheets of sound" it was coined in a DB article. And Coltrane...for me, the best on every level. Like most of us, I would have loved to see him play and speak, music doesn't get much heavier than that for me.

-DT
 
#70 ·
I'm not trying to argue or get into a fight, but I feel there's a lot of bebop in Trane's sheets of sound stuff.....after all, that was before he was with Impulse. Coltrane also didn't call it "sheets of sound" it was coined in a DB article. And Coltrane...for me, the best on every level. Like most of us, I would have loved to see him play and speak, music doesn't get much heavier than that for me.

-DT
I don't hate Coltrane music or anything I just don't want to play like that. Why is that so weird?
 
#80 ·
Having listened to the Chris Potter clips, yes he is an amazing technician. That said I would find it tiring to listen to an entire set of this music. I suspect the people looking for new "Titans" are using later Coltrane as their starting point, so their viewpoint of jazz tradition is rather truncated. Jazz has previously had periods of revolution followed by periods of simplification.
Today the simplification occurs outside the jazz mainstream, like smooth jazz etc., so there is no feedback loop

There are lots of harmonic based improvisers but the melodists have left the stage.

There are no new Hodges, Webster, Sims, Desmond or Pepper type players today. Coltrane was also a wonderful melodic player too. They have been replaced by non-jazz players like Sanborn, Kenny G etc.

Joe Lovano would be the closest approximation of a melodic jazz player , and he does try to incorporate pre-Coltrane influences into his playing. But he's the exception.

My 2 cents.
 
#81 ·
Having listened to the Chris Potter clips, yes he is an amazing technician. That said I would find it tiring to listen to an entire set of this music. I suspect the people looking for new "Titans" are using later Coltrane as their starting point, so their viewpoint of jazz tradition is rather truncated. Jazz has previously had periods of revolution followed by periods of simplification.
Today the simplification occurs outside the jazz mainstream, like smooth jazz etc., so there is no feedback loop

There are lots of harmonic based improvisers but the melodists have left the stage.

There are no new Hodges, Webster, Sims, Desmond or Pepper type players today. Coltrane was also a wonderful melodic player too. They have been replaced by non-jazz players like Sanborn, Kenny G etc.

Joe Lovano would be the closest approximation of a melodic jazz player , and he does try to incorporate pre-Coltrane influences into his playing. But he's the exception.

My 2 cents.
I beg to disagree. Your concept of what a melodic player is seems to be dated. There are many ways to be melodic. Besides, regarding contemporary players and melody (in your interpretation of the concept), have you ever listened to Chris Cheek?
 
#82 ·
Two other jazz giants that I have forgotten to mention previously:

On tenor - Rich Perry
On alto - David Binney

If one thinks about it, has there ever been a period in music where there were SO MANY saxophone titans as today?
 
#83 ·
I'm sure there always was a large number of players who the saxophone/jazz/music community would consider titans. It's just the fact that everything is so quick and technology is so advanced that people can be exposed to a large group of players in an instant. Imagine if the internet was around during the swing era/bebop/hard bop/etc..I'm sure there would be tons of players that we'd all be floored by. That's why oral tradition is so important and it's so important to get information from the "masters" and document it...not just in jazz/saxophone but in all styles of music and instruments. And I think both of those guys that you mentioned (Perry and Binney) are killin!

-DT
 
#86 ·
For me, it's been about keeping an open mind and noticing how I evolve as a listener. Fortunately, we all are free to have our particular tastes. Trouble sets in when I start defending my tastes as the "right ones." Then, if I don't dig what someone else is doing, I degrade it because it doesn't meet my subjective standard or my critical expectations. While it may be true that there are few opportunities for drastic paradigm shifts in art and music, there is so much to appreciate that is happening in this moment. It's true that there won't be another X player from the past if he was really a unique voice, but that doesn't mean there aren't unique voices alive today. Hopefully we won't have to wait until they are dead to appreciate them. I wonder what this discussion will look like 50 years from now.
 
#90 ·
So I checked out jlima's suggestions and listened to some Chris Cheek, I liked his sound. Very studious in a Lee Konitz way. Listened to Bob Mintzer again. Wonderful player, a good guy. He plays in so many styles. Didn't much like the Yellowjackets and big band stuff. I would consider him a master musician, but not a Titan. Titan suggests some kind of superhero. A term that is frequently applied to sports or movie celebrities but probably doesn't belong in music unless the guy is dead. Listened to Binney, didn't get it. Then again, I'm a slow learner I suspect. I only truly appreciate something with repeated listening. Unfortunately, I have to want to keep listening, and unless whatever it is grabs me at some immediate level. The Brad Mehldau stuff doesn't reach out to me directly. If I dug the concept more, then I could get to Mark Turner et al. If Titan is intended to refer to someone of absolute technical mastery, then there are lots of Titans out there. James Carter comes to mind.
 
#98 ·
Joshua Redman, Chris Potter, David Binney, Joe Lovano, Seamus Blake, Donny McCaslin, Vincent Herring, Bobby Watson, Kenny Garrett, and of course Wayne Shorter.
 
#100 ·
Thanks to piwikiwi for posting the Benjamin Herman video - I had never heard of him and I think he is great (although quite derivative, but who cares). I looked for more of him and there is a video on YouTube of him trying out different mouthpieces. It's really interesting to watch because whilst there is obviously a big difference between the mouthpieces he is trying out, his own sound shines through all of them, proving what many of my teachers have always taught me, ie that of course you should spend time hunting for the ultimate set up but that you must not get bogged down in that quest at the expense of good, solid practice. Nothing can replace that.

I had never really listened to anything by Chris Potter before this thread, and I don't especially like his playing (it just doesn't speak to me personally, sorry Chris Potter fans), but boy is he a good technician and he has obviously practised more than most to reach that level of virtuosity.
 
#105 ·
I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. I love sax and all of the players everyone has mentioned.

However, a saxophone is no longer the coolest toy in the neighborhood. DJs are taking over. Soon, somebody will create an EWI that makes the saxophone look/sound like a caveman blowing on a bone flute. The fact that we can discuss this topic on an internet forum may be evidence of the direction of music.
 
#106 ·
well with Michael Brecker in your list of the "before"s you should appreciate Chris Potter for one.but with some of the people which you cited e.g. Ben Webster we are talking about ballad playing with full tone.i suppose that if someone did that these days he would be criticized for not displaying enough technique! For originality i would cite Steve Coleman. I,m a big Sonny rollins fan but i wouldnt suggest him now-definitely between 1978 and 1994 though.and i think some people are too critical of James Carter. i kinda get some of the arguments but nobody can deny that he s showing us some things which can be done on a saxophone
 
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