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  1. #41
    Distinguished SOTW Member Woody Reed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    I think you might need to look before the flutter for answers. Fluttering requires an air flow and tongue position that is already present in my air stream. Maybe that's not how "your" airstream is focused? There are may ways to produce sound on the sax. Or different schools. Hak mentioned himself having difficulties because he comes from a classical school. I do as well, but I'm sure a different classical school? Make sense? At U Miami in the 80s, my teacher changed my entire air stream focus my freshman year. Forced me on a C*, and had me push waaaaaaay in, in order make my throat open up to bring the pitch down. I hated it then, but can appreciate it now. When I flutter up high, I have to open up even further. The tongue goes a little farther back, which lowers the pitch. I think? Hmmmm. When I get the horn out today, I'll analyze it. It might raise the pitch, which requires relaxing the jaw even more. To be honest, it's so second nature now, I don't even think about it. Which is really the whole point I suspect. Just don't give up. If you like that style, it's a great trick.

  2. #42
    Distinguished SOTW Member LateNiteSax's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    OMG I think I'm starting to get it! Very exciting. Its a whole different way of blowing and radical embouchure and throat adjustment for sure! Because I normally play with the tip of my tongue behind my bottom teeth (anchor tongue) I need to somehow get the tip of my tongue form down there to above the MP bite plate.. very subtle and tricky!!!!
    If I can work this into my playing I will be thrilled! The emotional intensity you can generate with this effect is amazing. When Euge and Lenny Pickett do this it drives me nuts.
    When I do this flutter with the tongue above the mouthpiece, I lift my teeth off off the bite plate to accommodate the tongue. Also the higher I go, starting on D and working up to F, the harder it is. Is the good?

    By the way I want to thank everyone for sharing and making this a totally awesome thread!
    "We sax players need to stick together and save the world." Sonny Rollins, 1993 after a show.

  3. #43
    Distinguished SOTW Member LateNiteSax's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    So the tongue has to be in position BEFORE the airstream begins is what it sounds like you are saying... Now listening to the Lenny Pickett clip I put up earlier on the thread it sounds like he might somehow be flipping his tongue up top from down below or from wherever mid-note because the note starts straight and the flutter begins mid note. And he also does it in the middle of phrase of several notes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Reed View Post
    I think you might need to look before the flutter for answers. Fluttering requires an air flow and tongue position that is already present in my air stream. Maybe that's not how "your" airstream is focused? There are may ways to produce sound on the sax. Or different schools. Hak mentioned himself having difficulties because he comes from a classical school. I do as well, but I'm sure a different classical school? Make sense? At U Miami in the 80s, my teacher changed my entire air stream focus my freshman year. Forced me on a C*, and had me push waaaaaaay in, in order make my throat open up to bring the pitch down. I hated it then, but can appreciate it now. When I flutter up high, I have to open up even further. The tongue goes a little farther back, which lowers the pitch. I think? Hmmmm. When I get the horn out today, I'll analyze it. It might raise the pitch, which requires relaxing the jaw even more. To be honest, it's so second nature now, I don't even think about it. Which is really the whole point I suspect. Just don't give up. If you like that style, it's a great trick.
    "We sax players need to stick together and save the world." Sonny Rollins, 1993 after a show.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    I've never thought about this at all before. Fluttering just happens for me. But when I think about it, I realize that in order to start the flutter I have to back off the mouthpiece just a tiny little bit, sort of to make room for my tongue to flutter. Then as soon as it starts I can move back in again. Does this jive with other's experience?
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    I've never thought about this at all before.
    I've never analyzed it either. I just do it. But what I have done is try to vary the effect by altering the air flow somewhat to get a more or less subtle effect. It can sound really crude and raunchy (which is great if that's what you're after), or by backing off somewhat on the airstream, it can sound more refined (not the best word for it, I guess) and closer to a typical growl. Just like any effect, you can work on it and get more control over it.

    Yeah Jr Walker used flutter tongue a lot, but I'd be willing to bet the earlier blues/jump blues players also used it.

    Like Woody said, in the upper register it will add a screaming edge to the sound that can't be ignored! But I like it a lot in the lower register where it sounds deep and raunchy... You can get the women going with that; try it, you'll find out.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by JL View Post
    ... But what I have done is try to vary the effect by altering the air flow somewhat to get a more or less subtle effect. It can sound really crude and raunchy (which is great if that's what you're after), or by backing off somewhat on the airstream, it can sound more refined (not the best word for it, I guess) and closer to a typical growl.
    Yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by JL View Post
    .I like it a lot in the lower register where it sounds deep and raunchy... You can get the women going with that; try it, you'll find out.
    Yeah, baby!
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  7. #47
    Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2009 Keith Ridenhour's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    I never use this effect either, I'll just growl or go for a split tone but If I had someone who wanted to learn I'd start with them saying Duuhhhhhhhh and then add the R as you let the tongue bounce off the top of your upper palate? When you can get a duhhhhrrrrfrr easy then I'd try to do it with the mouthpiece. Then the horn. K
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    This is a great discussion. I may even learn to do the flutter.

    But I got to ask: what does it mean to "focus the airstream?"

  9. #49
    Distinguished SOTW Member Woody Reed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Ridenhour View Post
    I'd start with them saying Duuhhhhhhhh and then add the R as you let the tongue bounce off the top of your upper palate?
    For me, it's more of a Huhhhhhhh sound. The air starts first. Definitely opening up and scooping into it. I was thinking about it today in my blow session. I'll record it happening really slowly tomorrow. I think someone that is interested in giving it a try will be able to hear the different stages of the process this way.

  10. #50
    Distinguished SOTW Member LateNiteSax's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    That would really help if you could record it slowly! Still struggling with this.
    "We sax players need to stick together and save the world." Sonny Rollins, 1993 after a show.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    I started reading this thread and was intrigued. I flutter tongue all the time and never really gave the mechanics of the process much thought. Now, much to the annoyance of my wife I've been sitting in my man corner flutter tonguing for half an hour up and down the chromatic scale and I find my tongue position is the same from low B1 to F3 (can't get Bb1). My tongue is positioned above the tip of the mouthpiece, kind of between my upper front teeth and the ridge of my pallet (right on the rounded section). Any closer or further from that sweet spot and fluttering is a no go. I hope this helps??
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    dont if i could explain to someone 'how' to do it. just pushing air at hte back top of the roof of your mouth. and fluttering in your throat...best i can do haha

  13. #53
    Distinguished SOTW Member LateNiteSax's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    I still am unable do this damn effect, and I now believe it has to do with the structure of my teeth/mouth. I needed braces as a kid and never got them, and should have had a pallet expander in my top jaw to spread my teeth wider. My theory is that there is not enough room in there to properly flutter my tongue on the those high notes. Lenny does it on high Eb, and Huge does it on high E. I can flutter lower notes fine, but in the high register they are always get choked off. Experimenting with different mouthpieces and reeds and the results are consistently the same.
    "We sax players need to stick together and save the world." Sonny Rollins, 1993 after a show.

  14. #54
    Flâneur's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    I honestly think it's a growl in the upper register.
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by LateNiteSax View Post
    My theory is that there is not enough room in there to properly flutter my tongue on the those high notes.
    Without refreshing my memory about everything that was said in this thread, this comment reminded me that I have paid attention recently to what happens when I flutter tongue and I became much more aware that I have to pull the mouthpiece out slightly in order to flutter tongue, especially on those high notes. I can be soloing along in the lower register and flutter tongue a long note but when I try it in the top of the upper register, sometimes it won't flutter unless I pull back slightly from the mouthpiece to give the note (and my tongue) "room" to flutter. That's on tenor. It's even more pronounced on bari. I've been playing the bari a lot more in a band I'm rehearsing and when I want to flutter a note on the big horn, I really have to pull back to make it come out.
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    I honestly think it's a growl in the upper register.
    Definitely, absolutely no question it's flutter tongue. Why would Euge lie?
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  17. #57
    Distinguished SOTW Member Woody Reed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    I really have to pull back to make it come out.
    You shouldn't have to pull the mouthpiece out. Pull the tongue back instead. That will open the throat more, so you'll have to adjust the airstream to do it in tune.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Reed View Post
    You shouldn't have to pull the mouthpiece out. Pull the tongue back instead. That will open the throat more, so you'll have to adjust the airstream to do it in tune.
    I have a very large tongue.
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  19. #59
    Distinguished SOTW Member Woody Reed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    I have a very large tongue.
    Must make you a very popular fella

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    Default Re: How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????


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