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How the heck does Euge Groove do this??????

19K views 81 replies 37 participants last post by  adamk 
#1 ·
At 3:59 and then again at 4:32 into the song, he flutters a high E. I can't for the life of me figure out how to do this, and 99% of the time I can figure this stuff out, but I'm stumped here. Tougue, throat, fingerings, large or smaller tip mouthpiece, harder or softer reed, I'm stumped... I want to be able to do this very badly. I have heard Lenny Pickett do this exact thing too in a high Eb. Please help.

 
#4 ·
I can't imagine thats flutter tonguing. I can get that effect in the low register but not in the palm keys like that. I don't think they are the same recording.

Ok I will try to ask him....
Send him a PM and ask him. I'm sure he'd be willing to help you out.
 
#7 ·
Ok like a rolling the tongue flutter, not a double tongue up and down sweeping flutter tongue. Yes it does sound like that. But when I try to flutter those notes in the upper register the note always goes down to the lower reg and it sounds awful. Does anyone follow me here? How do you get the fluttered high notes to come out high and in tune?
 
#9 ·
Im stumped. Heres Lenny Pickett doing it even better, but on a high Eb instead of a high E. He does it at :06 and I guess its the same clip repeated at 1:21.
 
#10 ·
Pretty sure thats a flutter. I dont have much problem with it in that range, except that sometimes when I get a flutter going up high my tongue will just stop, like its protesting the fact that im fluttering when I should probably be growling (humming). FWIW. I play on .115 tip openings and 3.5 reeds.
 
#11 ·
I have a lot of good mouthpieces here, including a couple of larger tip pieces... Ponzol M2 120 and a Vintage Berg 130/0 M and its doesn't work for me on those either. Right now on tenor I'm generally using a Berg 105/1 SMS.
 
#13 ·
I'm pretty sure it's flutter tonguing. The key is to keep your tongue relaxed. The air stream does all the work and the tongue vibrates VERY much like the reed vibrates, but just a lot slower. I speak spanish as my first language, and I roll my "R"s all the time. That probably helps.

Getting the tongue in place was the hardest part for me to overcome. Moving it from under the reed to over the top of the mouthpiece was very odd at first (or having it touch the roof of your mouth is more like it).

And every time I hear Lenny Pickett, it makes me want to play the horn. I LOVE his playing. Thanks for posting that.
 
#18 ·
It sounds like flutter tonguing to me. I learned how to do it after being completely baffled for a long time, but I didn't really try to hard. The way I did it was to do the fluttering without the mouthpiece in my mouth, and then just put the tip of the mouthpiece in your mouth while still fluttering, not worrying about getting a tone out of the sax but keeping the fluttering going. This ain't necessarily easy. Then put the mouthpiece a little further in, etc., and finally try to get a sound, (this can take days, not minutes) when you achieve a sound on any note you have your foot in the door, so to speak. The surprising thing is that your tongue, at least my tongue, is above the tip of the mouthpiece, not behind, on, or below it.
 
#15 ·
#17 ·
I just tried it now and I was able to do it pretty easily, even on high F. Couldn't do it in the altissimo register though, maybe if I worked at it.
I rarely use flutter tonguing on sax but my formal training is in classical flute, that's how I learned to do it. I'm also French speaking so maybe that helps.

I know many excellent saxophonists who can't slap tongue either. I guess it's one of those things that you almost have to be born with.
 
#23 ·
I've analyzed how I do it.

Draw the tip of the tongue back slightly so that it clears the tip of the reed.
Arch the tongue so that the sides touch the upper molars.
It's the middle of the tongue that flutters, touching the roof of the mouth.
 
#25 ·
There are threads about flutter tonguing and growling, etc. You could search for those. For me, fluttering comes naturally but I don't growl. The flutter is like rolling the Spanish r, as previously said. I was taught to pronounce the Spanish rolled r correctly by a woman named Lorena. She said if I didn't roll the r in her name, then I wasn't saying her name. I learned to do it. :D I can't growl naturally because I can't make myself hum a note that is not the note I'm playing. Others on this board have said the same thing. Re: slap tonguing - unless I don't understand what others mean by it, it's hard for me to understand why somebody wouldn't be able to slap tongue. I mean, it's literally slapping your tongue. Or more precisely, it's slapping your whole mouth or embouchure. But I can see where classical players who are trained to have a firm embouchure at all times would not be able to loosen up and play this way. Same thing occurs to me about fluttering and growling. I think they require a loose embouchure, or at least a lot of flexibility in what you do with your throat, mouth, tongue - the whole oral cavity thing.
 
#26 ·
It's definitely flutter tongue. For some reason I could always do this, but I find it difficult to do the humming growl thing. So I've worked on trying to control the flutter tongue and get a more subtle effect. I sure that's what he's doing on that high E. It is a bit more difficult to do on the higher notes, but still doable. If you can do it. If you follow me. It might be one of those things you have to learn as a child. I remember rolling my 'r's as a kid when learning Spanish in school (I grew up in Ca). I never really learned Spanish, but I did learn to roll my tongue.
 
#30 ·
Both Jr. Walker and Bobby Keyes use the flutter (check out Brown Sugar for Bobby's).
 
#31 ·
The technique is older than either Jr Walker or Bobby Keys recordings as I can think of 2 well known songs off the top of my head which are both older. One is The Wanderer by Dion and the other from the late 50's is well known to most sax players...Tequila. Both use flutter tongue.
 
#32 ·
Easier for someone speaking italiano, español or .... swiss-german. I assume it is a regular (in the before mentioned languages...) "RRRR" while playing, the tongue tip fluttering just behind the top teeth. Easy in the low register, it needs some training up there in the palm keys range, as it interferes with the air stream.
 
#34 ·
Ironically, I could never roll my "R's" in Spanish until I learned to flutter tongue. The way I taught myself to do it was to first do that thing with the throat like when you are trying to get phlegm out of your throat. I then took that same action and moved it up to my tongue. I don't know if this makes any sense, but it worked for me.
 
#35 ·
Ironically, I could never roll my "R's" in Spanish until I learned to flutter-tongue. The way I taught myself to do it was to make that movement in my throat like I was trying to get rid of some phlegm. I then transferred that same feeling and motion to my tongue, and I was good to go. I don't know if this makes any sense, but it worked for me....
 
#41 ·
I think you might need to look before the flutter for answers. Fluttering requires an air flow and tongue position that is already present in my air stream. Maybe that's not how "your" airstream is focused? There are may ways to produce sound on the sax. Or different schools. Hak mentioned himself having difficulties because he comes from a classical school. I do as well, but I'm sure a different classical school? Make sense? At U Miami in the 80s, my teacher changed my entire air stream focus my freshman year. Forced me on a C*, and had me push waaaaaaay in, in order make my throat open up to bring the pitch down. I hated it then, but can appreciate it now. When I flutter up high, I have to open up even further. The tongue goes a little farther back, which lowers the pitch. I think? Hmmmm. When I get the horn out today, I'll analyze it. It might raise the pitch, which requires relaxing the jaw even more. To be honest, it's so second nature now, I don't even think about it. Which is really the whole point I suspect. Just don't give up. If you like that style, it's a great trick.
 
#43 ·
So the tongue has to be in position BEFORE the airstream begins is what it sounds like you are saying... Now listening to the Lenny Pickett clip I put up earlier on the thread it sounds like he might somehow be flipping his tongue up top from down below or from wherever mid-note because the note starts straight and the flutter begins mid note. And he also does it in the middle of phrase of several notes.
 
#42 ·
OMG I think I'm starting to get it! Very exciting. Its a whole different way of blowing and radical embouchure and throat adjustment for sure! Because I normally play with the tip of my tongue behind my bottom teeth (anchor tongue) I need to somehow get the tip of my tongue form down there to above the MP bite plate.. very subtle and tricky!!!!
If I can work this into my playing I will be thrilled! The emotional intensity you can generate with this effect is amazing. When Euge and Lenny Pickett do this it drives me nuts.
When I do this flutter with the tongue above the mouthpiece, I lift my teeth off off the bite plate to accommodate the tongue. Also the higher I go, starting on D and working up to F, the harder it is. Is the good?

By the way I want to thank everyone for sharing and making this a totally awesome thread!
 
#44 ·
I've never thought about this at all before. Fluttering just happens for me. But when I think about it, I realize that in order to start the flutter I have to back off the mouthpiece just a tiny little bit, sort of to make room for my tongue to flutter. Then as soon as it starts I can move back in again. Does this jive with other's experience?
 
#45 ·
I've never thought about this at all before.
I've never analyzed it either. I just do it. But what I have done is try to vary the effect by altering the air flow somewhat to get a more or less subtle effect. It can sound really crude and raunchy (which is great if that's what you're after), or by backing off somewhat on the airstream, it can sound more refined (not the best word for it, I guess) and closer to a typical growl. Just like any effect, you can work on it and get more control over it.

Yeah Jr Walker used flutter tongue a lot, but I'd be willing to bet the earlier blues/jump blues players also used it.

Like Woody said, in the upper register it will add a screaming edge to the sound that can't be ignored! But I like it a lot in the lower register where it sounds deep and raunchy... You can get the women going with that; try it, you'll find out. :)
 
#46 ·
... But what I have done is try to vary the effect by altering the air flow somewhat to get a more or less subtle effect. It can sound really crude and raunchy (which is great if that's what you're after), or by backing off somewhat on the airstream, it can sound more refined (not the best word for it, I guess) and closer to a typical growl.
Yeah

.I like it a lot in the lower register where it sounds deep and raunchy... You can get the women going with that; try it, you'll find out. :)
Yeah, baby!
 
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