Harry Allen - Sublime Sound

[LiAm84]

I know he blows on a Link, but does anyone know what exactly? Just curious....

John

He plays master links but apparently refaced his mouthpiece himself after he managed to have a look at the mouthpiece Ben Webster used to play on. Apparently the way Ben Webster's mouthpiece had been opened up was very unusual and Harry asked various mouthpiece refacers to do the same thing for him but none would so he did it himself.

[Captain Beeflat]

Any drawings, sketches or even ideas available of the internals of Ben's mouthpiece?

[mrpeebee]

Harry Allen is a fantastic player in that style and I like what he is doing, but... there is also something that annoys me in his playing.

I've seen him a few times live and have listened to a lot of his clips and don't find his sound that big. Especially in the higher register he sounds a bit thin and bright IMO (just like Stan Getz). I guess that can be linked to the fact that he probably plays refaced Master Links. The original small tip pieces can sound very dark (check Lester Young and Herschel Evans in the 30's Basie band, or old Ben Webster stuff), but normally don't give much volume (unless played with a very hard reed and overblowing). Refaced Master Links normally get a higher baffle (or a small roll over baffle), which makes them louder but also brighter when pushed. I guess that's what happens to the sound of Harry. When you compare his sound to that of Scott Hamilton (they often played together) you can hear the difference. Scott plays bigger tips Florida Links and has a much fuller sound in the higher register.

I know, I know, who am I to say such things about a great player as Harry Allen! I will never reach his level in ten life times, but I've listened to a lot of old school tenor players (still do) and this is just my observation. I also own a refaced Master Link (from 4 to 6, probably done in the 40's) with a small roll over baffle and know how difficult it is to get that real dark but strong Master Link sound that the tenor masters of the past could get out of them.

Still, as mentioned before, I see Harry as a present tenor master and am very glad that players are still working succesfully in this old school tenor style. Thanks for those clips Liam .

[mrpeebee]

Any drawings, sketches or even ideas available of the internals of Ben's mouthpiece?

Ben played on a Master Link (30's), Tone Master (40's) and a Four**** model from somewhere in the 50's onwards. I always found his Four**** the most brightest, probably because it was refaced to a bigger tip. I think I've read somewhere in a biography that he played around an 8* tip with medium to hard reeds (3 to 3,5, see below links).

I know a Dutch player who played on Ben's sax during the last concert he gave back in 1973. Check these links with text and pictures about that concert:
- Dutch (text and pictures): http://www.bobrigter.com/ned17ben.htm
- Enlgish (text only): http://www.bobrigter.com/eng4ben.htm

[LiAm84]

Ben played on a Master Link (30's), Tone Master (40's) and a Four**** model from somewhere in the 50's onwards.

I had always thought Ben Webster had used a master link his whole career. He played a master link with a Four**** ligature. You can see in pictures that his mouthpiece has the ridges for a slide on lig but he is using a standard Four**** lig instead of the slide on one.


Also Scott Hamilton switched from his very open STM to a refaced master link about 5 years ago.

[Wagspdx]

Great stuff! Much appreciated.

[drwhippet]

His sound reminds me of a mix of Zoot Sims, Stan Getz, Coleman Hawkins and Lucky Thompson (but in whose sound there is a lot of Hawk). His playing style reminds me most of Zoot. IMO he doesn't use enough heavy, syrupy vibrato to sound like Ben Webster (thankfully).

[jlima]

The most relevant and interesting aspect of this thread, for me, is really that everyone is making (legitimate) comparisons with older tenor players and no one is saying "Harry Allen sounds like ... Harry Allen".

[Captain Beeflat]

The most relevant and interesting aspect of this thread, for me, is really that everyone is making (legitimate) comparisons with older tenor players and no one is saying "Harry Allen sounds like ... Harry Allen".

Certainly he sounds like Harry Allen....sounding like Ben Webster.

[jlima]

Certainly he sounds like Harry Allen....sounding like Ben Webster.

Lol!

[saxguy1953]

Everyone who is aware of the great tenor tradition is derivative to a certain degree or another. It depends where you are going and what you aspire to.

Harry Allen is an amalgam in my mind of all the greats that have been mentioned, which by itself is quite an accomplishment. Like Gene Quill responded to a patron who told him with a smirk that he sounded exactly like Bird “here’s my horn man, lets see you sound exactly like Bird”.

I went to high school with the late great Bob Berg. When he was 17/18 he sounded exactly like 1958-59 Coltrane. You could close your eyes and it would be really hard to tell the difference. To me, over time that massive influence waned and he sounded like Bob Berg.

While of course Harry Allen sounds like Harry Allen, I don’t think he is on the same stylistic arc toward his own thing as much as Berg was for instance.
Still a BAMF though.

[paulwl]

Something to consider about Harry is that his sound might have gotten him noticed in the early days, but his technique got him respected. Once he'd passed that high technical bar of today's players, he could choose to embrace a style and sound people didn't associate with technique.

At the same time, if he strikes you as a "tribute" player to Zoot, Ben, Hawk, Getz and/or Scott, that may be an inevitable consequence of being schooled enough to cut it today. A good scholar studies his inspirations systematically, in fine detail, and obsessively enough that they become part of his imagination.

(Disclosure: I am an Allen-Hamilton type tenor player myself, but I was never technical enough or obsessive enough to pick up more than sound, shape and feel.)

[jlima]

Harry Allen is an amalgam in my mind of all the greats that have been mentioned, which by itself is quite an accomplishment. Like Gene Quill responded to a patron who told him with a smirk that he sounded exactly like Bird “here’s my horn man, lets see you sound exactly like Bird”.

I agree that it's a great accomplishment. But I don't think that one needs to play or sound like Bird (or any other great) in order to be allowed to make a comment on originality and voice in music.

[piwikiwi]

Certainly he sounds like Harry Allen....sounding like Ben Webster.

Harry Allen sounds more like zoot then ben imho.

[chknbon]

When I met Harry @ Nighttown, Clev. I commented on PeeWee Ellis previously being there & his sound & embouchure, & Harry said he, Harry, plays with a double lip embouchure. I enjoy his unique sound & love his note choices & phrasing.

[rleitch]

I agree that it's a great accomplishment. But I don't think that one needs to play or sound like Bird (or any other great) in order to be allowed to make a comment on originality and voice in music.

In my father's house there are many mansions!

[Watsonp143]

In my father's house there are many mansions!

Excellent!!! So many great players and styles why make music a competition sport.

[mrpeebee]

Ben played on a Master Link (30's), Tone Master (40's) and a Four**** model from somewhere in the 50's onwards.

I had always thought Ben Webster had used a master link his whole career. He played a master link with a Four**** ligature. You can see in pictures that his mouthpiece has the ridges for a slide on lig but he is using a standard Four**** lig instead of the slide on one.

Also Scott Hamilton switched from his very open STM to a refaced master link about 5 years ago.

I found that Ben Webster played a Tone Master >here< and >here<, but I actually didn't find pictures showing Ben on a Tone Master. I found two pictures of him on a >Master Link with original ligature< and a later one on a >Master Link with a Tone Master ligature<, so you could be right. Thanks for correcting me .

Didn't know that Scott changed to a Tone Master. Last time I saw him in Holland was exactly >five years ago< and he still played a Florida Link at that time.

[paulwl]

Excellent!!! So many great players and styles why make music a competition sport.

I guess because playing well implies making it your life, and that means making it your living...

[Watsonp143]

I never said one shouldn't play well and aspire to play better each day. Music has been my life and living since 1971. I hope you have done well in your musical life.