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  1. #1

    Default Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    I was wondering if any of the Brilhart experts out there can tell me what era my Brilhart is from? It is an Ebolin Streamline 3 with a serial number 19xxx. I have seen some of the history on these but just can't get a handle on when this mouthpiece may be have been manufactured. It plays beautifully and I am just curious about the history.

    Thanks!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Is the tip opening on the table or on the top of the piece? Does it say "Great Neck, NY" on the shank? The serial number you provided results in the following:

    -if tip # on table/"Great Neck, NY" on shank: probably late 40s. (Great Neck Brilhart)
    **tip was on top of piece in later Great Neck pieces....still said "Great Neck" though.**

    -if tip # on top of piece/no "Great Neck": probably early to mid 50s. (Carlsbad Brilhart)

    Check out the link:

    http://theowanne.com/knowledge/mouth...useum-brilhart

    I love Brilharts. Fantastic pieces.

  3. #3
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    I agree with blue boy. Your mouthpiece was probably made late 40s. (Assuming same number produced each year (which probably not is true) and remembering that they were discontinued during (part of) WW II)
    A few comments:
    Streamlines were never marked Great Neck. On one side of the shank it says Ebolin (or Tonalin) and on the other side, (where the regulars were marked Arnold Brilhart and Great Neck. N.Y.) they are marked Streamline.
    The tip opening placement shifted from table to top around s/n 14000 for the Streamlines. (Which seem to have had their own serial numbers, like several of the other models.)
    You may read more here: http://www.saxmundstykker.dk/MPC_Brillys_Intro.html

    I love Brilharts too. Also his "second coming", the ARB-pieces.
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Thanks Peterogping.....I learned most of what I know about Brilharts from your fantastic research and spreadsheets. Thanks for the info on the Streamline's shank, good to know. Brilhart dating has always frustrated me, but I feel we can all get pretty close now thanks to your hard work. Peace and Love buddy.

  5. #5
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Blueboy. Thanks for the kind words.
    The newest insight is that Brilhart moved business address from Great Neck to Mineola and then to Huntington (all on Long Island, NY) before they moved to Carlsbad. But did they move production site also ?? (I checked the address (unfortunately only street, not number) in Huntington on Google Maps and it certainly looks more like a residential area, while Mineola looks more like industrial.). The Personalines were launched in the beginning of 1951 when Brilhart had business address in Huntington.
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Thanks for the info. On one side of the shank it say Ebolin and on the other says Streamline. There is no tip opening marked on this, but Brian Powell worked on it and opened it to .09 (it was originally a 3) and I was wondering if the original tip opening could have been removed since Brian worked on it? I don't know enough about this process to know if that is true or not.

    I also have a rare Ivan c Kay that is much like an Otto and BP also worked on this one. He loved it and it has a deep, rich sound. But I cannot find much about these mouthpieces anywhere. But it sounds nice.

    Thanks for all the tips, and I loved all the research you have done.

  7. #7
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    As indicated above, the tip opening would be on the top side for a Streamline with a serial larger than ca. 14000. It is unlikely that a refacing would have removed that.
    You never said: Is yours a tenor or an alto piece ?
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  8. #8
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    For a Streamline after s/n ca. 14000, the tip opening number would be on top of the mouthpiece. It is unlikely that a refacing would remove that.
    You never told us: Is yours a tenor or an alto piece ?
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Sorry guys. It is a tenor. There is a "3" stamped on the top of the mouthpiece and a chart I saw online indicates that a 3 may have an opening of .08 to .085. And then Brian Powell opened it up to .095. But those are the only markings I see on the mouthpiece.

  10. #10
    Distinguished SOTW Member Jazz Is All's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterogping View Post
    The tip opening placement shifted from table to top around s/n 14000 for the Streamlines. (Which seem to have had their own serial numbers, like several of the other models.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peterogping View Post
    As indicated above, the tip opening would be on the top side for a Streamline with a serial larger than ca. 14000.
    When you say around S/N 14,000, how approximate are you being? My Ebolin Streamline Tenor 3--which I love to death BTW-- has the S/N on the top and it's 13,04X. Since it is almost 1000 pieces earlier than the 14,000 you cite, what would that mean? That you were just being very general with that number, that mine is an anomaly, or that the change-over was in fact at least 1,000 pieces earlier if not more? Also, if the Streamlines never said Great Neck on them, is the location of the S/N then the only defining indicator of where the pieces were made (with the Greatnecks on the table and the Carlsbads on the top), or is there some other way to tell?

    BTW, the opening of this 3 is approx .84.

    As always, thanks for all the great work you do cataloging and reasearching Brilharts.
    "We don't determine music, the music determines us; We only follow it to the end of our life: then it goes on without us." -- Steve Lacy


  11. #11
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Is All View Post
    When you say around S/N 14,000, how approximate are you being? My Ebolin Streamline Tenor 3--which I love to death BTW-- has the S/N on the top and it's 13,04X. Since it is almost 1000 pieces earlier than the 14,000 you cite, what would that mean? That you were just being very general with that number, that mine is an anomaly, or that the change-over was in fact at least 1,000 pieces earlier if not more? Also, if the Streamlines never said Great Neck on them, is the location of the S/N then the only defining indicator of where the pieces were made (with the Greatnecks on the table and the Carlsbads on the top), or is there some other way to tell?
    Thank you for the nice words.
    I was inaccurate. I have the Streamlines listed in different ways and looked at the list with all Streamlines listed numerically. Looking at the specific list of Ebolin tenor Streamlines (not uploaded yet) I have 9069 (Table) and next is 12078 (Top) as the rest. So I should have said that the change appeared between 9000 and 12000. (For Tonalin tenor Streamlines the change is between 13013 (Table) and 16087 (Top). And I have an anomaly (8178) which has the opening marked on top.) Please bear in mind that I have only data for 47 out of 197000+ Tonalin and 26 out of 212000+ Ebolin Streamlines, So there are a lot of white areas on the map.
    For the transfer from Great Neck to Carlsbad, I (at present) believe that the "large font" was used in Great Neck, and the "small font" was used in Carlsbad.
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  12. #12
    Distinguished SOTW Member Jazz Is All's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterogping View Post
    The newest insight is that Brilhart moved business address from Great Neck to Mineola and then to Huntington (all on Long Island, NY) before they moved to Carlsbad. But did they move production site also ?? (I checked the address (unfortunately only street, not number) in Huntington on Google Maps and it certainly looks more like a residential area, while Mineola looks more like industrial.). The Personalines were launched in the beginning of 1951 when Brilhart had business address in Huntington.
    You can't go by what that area looks like now because back in 1951 that area of L.I. was neither very populated nor very developed. Plus it depends on what part of Huntington he was in. I have never lived in Huntington but I did live in a town in between it and Great Neck for three years when I was a kid, so I know something of what the area was like back then. Until the end of WWII most of L.I. was fairly rural and sparsely populated and covered with farms, potato farms in particular, that supplied NYC with produce. With the end of the war and the baby boom people needed housing and those farms and open lands were turned into housing developments of varying income levels and the area grew enormously during the 50's both in population and commerce in direct relation to its proximity to NYC.

    If you look at the map you'll see that Huntington is big because like many "towns" in NY State, it's actually a Township which is a geopolitical entity that encompasses other smaller incorporated and unincoporated communities within its borders. Those towns and villages vary in demographics and income level from wealthier residential ones, most generally along the shore (think boats, summer homes, and country clubs) to more commercial and working class towns farther inland.

    So it doesn't seem at all unlikely to me that Brilhart had his production facility there at that time, especially since I doubt he would have used his residence address for the business if infact it had remained in Mineola. I think that he moved it to each of those towns in succession because the growth of each--and the resultant increase in property values, rental rates, and taxes--was directly related to its proximity to NYC. Since Great Neck is the closest it grew earlier than either Mineola or Huntington which were each somewhat farther away and thus developed later.

    Unfortunately without Arnold or someone who worked with him to tell us, there is no way to confirm this and so it is just a somewhat informed logical deduction on my part.
    "We don't determine music, the music determines us; We only follow it to the end of our life: then it goes on without us." -- Steve Lacy


  13. #13

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Thanks for all the great posts on this topic. From what you all are saying and what I now know about all the number placements my Streamline with a serial number in the 19000 range with a smaller font and tip opening number on the top probably means it is a Carlsbad sometime around 1950. Brilharts ahve a very interesting history. Thanks for all the responses.

  14. #14
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Thanks (again) to Jazz Is All for the geographical comments. Nice input.
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    I know this is an old thread but I have a question about the Streamline for Peterogping:
    Do you know if there were any Streamlines made without serial numbers?
    Indicating the Streamline series continued after Selmer took over?
    '24 Conn New Wonder tenor and '36 Conn 10M

  16. #16
    Distinguished SOTW Member Jazz Is All's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    That's an interesting question. I'd be interested in knowing the answer too, although I would still only want to buy ones with serial numbers. If I ever get some extra cash I'm going to find a really good Personaline to go with my current Streamline. Then a HR Great Neck and a Tonalite. Someday....hope, wish, hope, wish....
    "We don't determine music, the music determines us; We only follow it to the end of our life: then it goes on without us." -- Steve Lacy


  17. #17
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2007 Peterogping's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    I have not seen a Streamline without a serial number, and neither one with the "serial number" derived from production date that Selmer used for the first half year of 1967.
    Highest serial I have listed for a Streamline is an alto Ebolin 229970.
    Soprano: Martin Handcraft, ARB HR 5* mpc, Charles Bay lig.
    Alto: King Marigaux, MC Gregory Master 5A 18M mpc., Charles Bay ligature / Pierret Super Artiste, Otto Link "Master Link" #3 mpc, Charles Bay soprano lig.
    Tenor: King Zephyr Military 265xxx, Dukoff Fluted Chamber 5* HR, Charles Bay ligature / Brilhart Streamline Tonalin (Great Neck) #4, Charles Bay lig.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterogping View Post
    I have not seen a Streamline without a serial number, and neither one with the "serial number" derived from production date that Selmer used for the first half year of 1967.
    Highest serial I have listed for a Streamline is an alto Ebolin 229970.
    Peterogping, thanks for clarifying. Being a Brilhart player myself I just could not resist and won an
    ugly looking Streamline 5 tip from Ebay. I asked the seller about the serial # and he replied there is none.
    So either this could be a late Streamline or a rare oddball case. Or, as the markings on the body are barely visible,
    there is a possibility the serial has fainted.
    '24 Conn New Wonder tenor and '36 Conn 10M

  19. #19
    Distinguished SOTW Member Jazz Is All's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzznbluezzz View Post
    Peterogping, thanks for clarifying. Being a Brilhart player myself I just could not resist and won an
    ugly looking Streamline 5 tip from Ebay. I asked the seller about the serial # and he replied there is none.
    So either this could be a late Streamline or a rare oddball case. Or, as the markings on the body are barely visible,
    there is a possibility the serial has fainted.
    "Fainted" and fell to the floor??

    Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
    "We don't determine music, the music determines us; We only follow it to the end of our life: then it goes on without us." -- Steve Lacy


  20. #20

    Default Re: Brilhart Ebolin Streamline Mouthpiece

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Is All View Post
    "Fainted" and fell to the floor??

    Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
    Oooops sorry for the typo. I had very faint in mind but actually meant faded.
    '24 Conn New Wonder tenor and '36 Conn 10M

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