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  1. #21

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by florian View Post
    Thank you, most of us "professionals" love to share our knowledge but many of us get frustrated about the same questions again and again. And also about beginners who really believe that there are shortcuts and don't believe us that there are not. I personally get frustrated if someone asks a question like: which mouthpiece is the best for my Mark VI? Questions like this are stupid and burn up memory on the servers, which means they cost Harri money. A little search on the net and on SOTW, a little thinking on this and anyone would get enough information to know that this question is not working at all. When i started to learn the sax, there was no CD, no handy, no internet and windows was before W95. I wish i have had the access to information and the tools that exist today. Learning would have been so easy. And if i had the chance to ask important questions to some pros then i would have learned much faster. But so many young cats here ask questions that don't make sense or react to answers as if they didn't really wanted any advice at all. And this can pretty fast lead us to give ironic or sarcastic answers although we really love to share our knowledge in general.
    You make a good point about what's available today to help us novices. I myself spend a great deal of time in the net, probably too much. Unfortunately it reaches the point of information overload with lots of conflicting information, hence the stupid questions directed at the pros to get the straight scoop.

    We all know that at the end of the day it comes down to good study habits and dedicated practice but that shortcut is so tempting.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by diskman50 View Post
    You make a good point about what's available today to help us novices. I myself spend a great deal of time in the net, probably too much. Unfortunately it reaches the point of information overload with lots of conflicting information, hence the stupid questions directed at the pros to get the straight scoop.

    We all know that at the end of the day it comes down to good study habits and dedicated practice but that shortcut is so tempting.
    We are willing to help if the question is good. If you ask: i found this and that information and i am confused now, could please someone tell me what is right or wrong or how to get both informations together (two sides of the coin principle)? Then you will find definitely people here who are really willing to help. But some here ask questions without thinking first and few also do posts in order to only feel great without having enough knowledge to give good advice to someone who really needs help.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    I need to play Misty in band by Friday - could someone send me the notes ?
    Also what mouthpiece is good for this tune ?

    Please respond within 3 minutes.
    Captain Clam

  4. #24
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2008 The A Train's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    I need to play Misty in band by Friday - could someone send me the notes ?
    Also what mouthpiece is good for this tune ?
    If you buy a new sax from the 'Big 4' Misty comes built in

  5. #25

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    I need to play Misty in band by Friday - could someone send me the notes ?
    Also what mouthpiece is good for this tune ?

    Please respond within 3 minutes.
    I can send you a plastic Embouchure just let me know for what sax!!!

    Tom..

  6. #26
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    Thumbs down Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by ericdano View Post
    I don't get the purpose of "post" like these. Sort of a waste of time....

    I have to say...I agree. Really, Gary....you are stooping a bit low aren't you ?

    I mean, most of your commentary is helpful... or at least apt...but a percentage of it always seems to be curmudgeonly and a at least a bit mean, too.

    Basically,...an older, reputedly advanced/experienced player hangs out surfing around in the Beginner Section... and gets so fed up that he has to shout "jeez...these questions are really stoopid".



    Wow...that's just uproarious. Really ....rich.

    This thread serves no purpose other than venting.


    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    look things on the bright side, if you don’t want you don’t have to read it or comment about it........


    Great advice...particularly for the OP....


    Quote Originally Posted by florian View Post
    It's called irony.
    Quote Originally Posted by alexd View Post
    No its called rudeness.


    Precisely. And I am glad some of you, at least (not enough, however) are standing up and saying so.


    This is the Beginner section. It is bound to get repeated questions on the same subject...questions which a lot of players with a few years under their belt may deem naive or obvious.

    But they are not to a beginner.

    Man, if I were a first-time visitor here and I landed on your thread, Gary...I'd think this place is the pits....

    Really....this thread is shameful and pretty much bites.....
    ...and you guys who are jumping onboard the "let's gripe and bash" bandwagon....harharhar.....at least for today.... you kinda do, too.....

    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

  7. #27
    Distinguished SOTW Member Dr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by gary View Post
    Beginners to Intermediate players - a general suggestion:

    Do not practice long tones, scales, arpeggios, etudes, sight-reading, ear-training or other such traditional fundamental exercises.

    Additionally, do not use too much of your spare time up with intense listening to music of different eras and to legendary players. And by all means, do not go out and listen to live music.

    If in doubt if you should be using up your time working on any of these fundamentals, please post threads asking for support from other forum members who also see little value in them.

    While they have only been highly valued and essential activities by legions of successful wind musicians for the last, oh, several hundreds of years, there's no reason in this day and age not to question their value with an eye to modernising your practice routine and eliminating them altogether.
    got an iphone app for that?
    Go for The Tone,

    g



    "When you are doing well, don't forget to do good." - Sichan Siv.

  8. #28
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    I am not even going to begin about the many rants of all sorts on this and any other site!

    A forum doesn’t oblige anybody to take part to any thread, nor there is any compulsion to read rants once you realise you bumped into one.

    If space was a problem for the site (and in that case reprimands are dealt by the forum staff) then let’s start telling off all the people who come up with:

    Which (saxhaphone ) should I buy?
    Which mouthpiece should I buy?
    Which reed, case,stand,microphone,..........?

    Answer:......... a good one that you like and can afford......... since they always turn out being a dictionary enumeration of all the brands possible and impossible.


    Have you got any idea of how many times these question have been asked and answered? That is not wasting space and bandwidth while this rant does? If Gary wants to complain let him complain. If one feels that his complaint shouldn’t be dignified by an answer than don’t give one.

    Again, the only reason to answer a post is if you see something into it, if you don’t......you don’t!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    I am not even going to begin about the many rants of all sorts on this and any other site!

    A forum doesn’t oblige anybody to take part to any thread, nor there is any compulsion to read rants once you realise you bumped into one.

    If space was a problem for the site (and in that case reprimands are dealt by the forum staff) then let’s start telling off all the people who come up with:

    Which (saxhaphone ) should I buy?
    Which mouthpiece should I buy?
    Which reed, case,stand,microphone,..........?

    Answer:......... a good one that you like and can afford......... since they always turn out being a dictionary enumeration of all the brands possible and impossible.


    Have you got any idea of how many times these question have been asked and answered? That is not wasting space and bandwidth while this rant does? If Gary wants to complain let him complain. If one feels that his complaint shouldn’t be dignified by an answer than don’t give one.

    Again, the only reason to answer a post is if you see something into it, if you don’t......you don’t!
    milandro, maybe you are right i think. Wisely said.

  10. #30
    Distinguished SOTW Member Carl H.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    It is very frustrating to give a concise answer directly to the point, only to have the OP go along with someone who is totally wrong, but saying what the OP wants to hear. It seems hardly worth the effort to post on the beginner area anymore. This is why many experienced long term members are no longer around - too much noise and fighting the same fights with new members who are full of themselves and misinformation. It just gets old and there are more productive ways to spend time.

    Just ignore this post, since I haven't posted Giant Steps at 240bpm - and do not intend to either.
    So far, this is the oldest I've been.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by JayePDX View Post

    I have to say...I agree. Really, Gary....you are stooping a bit low aren't you ?

    I mean, most of your commentary is helpful... or at least apt...but a percentage of it always seems to be curmudgeonly and a at least a bit mean, too.

    Basically,...an older, reputedly advanced/experienced player hangs out surfing around in the Beginner Section... and gets so fed up that he has to shout "jeez...these questions are really stoopid".



    Wow...that's just uproarious. Really ....rich.

    This thread serves no purpose other than venting.




    Great advice...particularly for the OP....




    Precisely. And I am glad some of you, at least (not enough, however) are standing up and saying so.


    This is the Beginner section. It is bound to get repeated questions on the same subject...questions which a lot of players with a few years under their belt may deem naive or obvious.

    But they are not to a beginner.

    Man, if I were a first-time visitor here and I landed on your thread, Gary...I'd think this place is the pits....

    Really....this thread is shameful and pretty much bites.....
    ...and you guys who are jumping onboard the "let's gripe and bash" bandwagon....harharhar.....at least for today.... you kinda do, too.....

    Now we all calm down again ok? Gary had to blow of steam and he did and sometimes it is necessary to get back to zero and proceed normal.
    Was it slightly too sarcastic? Maybe, but compared to other things i heard here on SOTW (even from beginners) not too rude.
    Beginners have a right to ask questions and to maybe get answers. But with having such an easy access to information today we will also have them to learn to listen, to think for themselves, to find solutions on their own and ask the right questions, that's pedagogy. And all this easy access to information also sometimes keeps people from finding their own ways and their own solutions which often results in generalizations (embouchure, mpcs, sound, etc. etc.), using irony or sarcasm really can teach (but doesn't have to) someone more than giving only the plain information he asks for .
    I don't think Garys intention was to rant at beginners. By using irony and sarcasm he was trying to show that many youngsters don't learn or even want to learn the fundatmentals of music any longer. This is not good and very frustrating.
    I teach a lot of students and the worst students come from the Generation-Application which sometimes don't seem to understand that progress and knowledge takes time, enthusiasm and a lot of work, they simply don't want to believe that there is no shortcut.
    Everyone of us may have said something stupid in the past but learned by getting corrected from others and we will help others the same way whether it is a beginner or not. Using irony for this is sometimes ok, i think, as long as we don't try to hurt the other on purpose. I don't think Gary would have got more attention if he would have said: "Please it is very important for beginners to learn the fundamentals of music.". Provocation can sometimes be a valuable part in pedagogy (if you don't push it too far).

  12. #32

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl H. View Post
    It is very frustrating to give a concise answer directly to the point, only to have the OP go along with someone who is totally wrong, but saying what the OP wants to hear. It seems hardly worth the effort to post on the beginner area anymore. This is why many experienced long term members are no longer around - too much noise and fighting the same fights with new members who are full of themselves and misinformation. It just gets old and there are more productive ways to spend time.

    Just ignore this post, since I haven't posted Giant Steps at 240bpm - and do not intend to either.
    The problem is: not having a chance to know who is experienced and who not (who is prof. and who is the imposter). And i think there are some very bad misinformations going on with some beginners on SOTW. But i don't find a solution to this problem.
    e.g. we have beginners who advertise their own saxophone schools here on SOTW and do posts as if they would know what they are talking about but if you look at the posts they actually don't.
    The big question is: how should a beginner know who to trust and what information to trust, if he himself can't because he lacks the knowledge necessary for this?

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    I understand why some would think gary's OP here is rude or insulting, but I didn't read it that way at all. Ironic and sarcastic, yes. Even humorous (but then I often see humour where others don't, ). But most of all, maybe it was to spark some really good discussion, and it appears to have done so. The main point I read was there are no shortcuts and you do have to work on the fundamentals, in spite of what you might read on here to the contrary. And believe me, for years I tried to skirt the hard work and look for that magic bullet or shortcut. If it's there, I haven't found it yet.

    So I don't necessarily read gary's post as a rant. Sometimes I want to rant when someone comes on here asking for advice, then when the advice is freely given, they will vehemently reject it and keep fishing until someone tells them what they want to hear. Usually they are looking for that shortcut or think they know it all, in spite of asking for advice.

    That's not so say all the 'advice' on here is great. As florian points out, there is plenty of misinformation as well. But all the fundamentals gary said you "don't" need to do (meaning you do need them), are tried, true, and indispensible.

    Just in case anyone is confused, go back to the OP and replace the 'do nots' with 'do'.

    p.s. Ok, now I'm going to go play some long tones...

  14. #34
    Distinguished SOTW Member Dr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl H. View Post
    It is very frustrating to give a concise answer directly to the point, only to have the OP go along with someone who is totally wrong, but saying what the OP wants to hear.
    Affirmation vs information. Yep.

    BTW, I am getting some most excellent use of the Ignore List. It would be interesting to know how well it correlates to age and experience on the horn.

    Be well, everyone. No exceptions.
    Go for The Tone,

    g



    "When you are doing well, don't forget to do good." - Sichan Siv.

  15. #35
    Distinguished SOTW Member Fader's Avatar
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    Default

    Fun read. I've spent a life-time taking every shortcut to learning I could. The lesson it took 50 years to learn was that there are no shortcuts....

    Ah well....

  16. #36

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Shortcuts!? Really? Ok, there you go:
    Don't quit playin'
    Don't quit practising
    Don't quit listening
    ....but can you sing me a song?.... (Lester Young)

  17. #37
    The most prolific Distinguished SOTW poster, Forum Contributor 2014 gary's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by JL View Post
    I understand why some would think gary's OP here is rude or insulting, but I didn't read it that way at all. Ironic and sarcastic, yes. Even humorous (but then I often see humour where others don't, ). But most of all, maybe it was to spark some really good discussion, and it appears to have done so.

    The main point I read was there are no shortcuts and you do have to work on the fundamentals, in spite of what you might read on here to the contrary...

    So I don't necessarily read gary's post as a rant. Sometimes I want to rant when someone comes on here asking for advice, then when the advice is freely given, they will vehemently reject it and keep fishing until someone tells them what they want to hear. Usually they are looking for that shortcut or think they know it all, in spite of asking for advice.

    That's not so say all the 'advice' on here is great. As florian points out, there is plenty of misinformation as well. But all the fundamentals gary said you "don't" need to do (meaning you do need them), are tried, true, and indispensible.
    Precisely.
    ____________________________________________________
    You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.

    TK Melody UL soprano
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    I read Gary's rant as a not bothering to learn basic skills that have served other so well in becoming proficient musicians is foolish.... Gary's message was fairly obvious... don't practice the basics and you will probably suck. It is a negative message just as saying practice the basics and you will get better is a positive message. Same message two ways of saying it. Often, very often, changing how a message is transmitted improves the likelihood the message is understood.

    Oh our discussing Gary's diatribe just increases the chance that the basic message of don't practice basic techniques and you will suck or practice basic techniques and you will improve.


    I still want Gary to pass on whatever he was smoking.

  19. #39
    The most prolific Distinguished SOTW poster, Forum Contributor 2014 gary's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by FremontSax View Post
    I still want Gary to pass on whatever he was smoking.
    I hate to reveal it, but no hallucinogenics.
    The sad truth of the matter is, that it all resides in the dark recesses of my mind.
    ____________________________________________________
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    TK Melody UL soprano
    Selmer S80 Serie II alto
    Julius Keilwerth SX90R tenor


  20. #40
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Dark......Grey........matters

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