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  1. #1
    The most prolific Distinguished SOTW poster, Forum Contributor 2014 gary's Avatar
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    Default Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Beginners to Intermediate players - a general suggestion:

    Do not practice long tones, scales, arpeggios, etudes, sight-reading, ear-training or other such traditional fundamental exercises.

    Additionally, do not use too much of your spare time up with intense listening to music of different eras and to legendary players. And by all means, do not go out and listen to live music.

    If in doubt if you should be using up your time working on any of these fundamentals, please post threads asking for support from other forum members who also see little value in them.

    While they have only been highly valued and essential activities by legions of successful wind musicians for the last, oh, several hundreds of years, there's no reason in this day and age not to question their value with an eye to modernising your practice routine and eliminating them altogether.
    ____________________________________________________
    You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.

    TK Melody UL soprano
    Selmer S80 Serie II alto
    Julius Keilwerth SX90R tenor


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Gary, pass whatever you are smoking my way.

  3. #3
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    as the Immortal Ski Johnson said “ Work hard! There is room for everyone! Everyone has their own individuality “..........it took him 20 years to get where he is........ and practice was just a minimal part of if, mostly was trying to get and stay in the public eye!


  4. #4

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    I don't get the purpose of "post" like these. Sort of a waste of time....

  5. #5
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by ericdano View Post
    I don't get the purpose of "post" like these. Sort of a waste of time....
    look things on the bright side, if you don’t want you don’t have to read it or comment about it........

  6. #6

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by ericdano View Post
    I don't get the purpose of "post" like these. Sort of a waste of time....
    It's called irony. Also it feels good to get rid of the frustration of dealing with the many stupid questions,posts and threads of some beginners and amateurs here on SOTW that don't use their braincells enough or that don't want to listen to some experienced players advice.

  7. #7
    Forum Contributor 2009 & Mouthpiece Patch Mogul Face Ache Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Thats an insult to the many beginners and intermediate players that do practice those things, use all their spare time listening, going to live gigs etc etc etc.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by gary View Post
    Beginners to Intermediate players - a general suggestion:

    Do not practice long tones, scales, arpeggios, etudes, sight-reading, ear-training or other such traditional fundamental exercises.

    Additionally, do not use too much of your spare time up with intense listening to music of different eras and to legendary players. And by all means, do not go out and listen to live music.

    If in doubt if you should be using up your time working on any of these fundamentals, please post threads asking for support from other forum members who also see little value in them.

    While they have only been highly valued and essential activities by legions of successful wind musicians for the last, oh, several hundreds of years, there's no reason in this day and age not to question their value with an eye to modernising your practice routine and eliminating them altogether.
    Same goes with equipment. Why don't they get it that they have to buy the best and most expensive horn (must be a jazz sax) and the best mouthpiece (there can be only one, with jazzsound and buzzenhancer and brightness-selector (bright to superbright) if they really want to play. When will they ever learn, that without proper jazzembouchure and an original jazzreed they never will be able to play jazz. They should be so lucky today, that they don't have to deal with the booze, the drugs and the girls any longer in order to learn to play jazz like we had when we learned all this stuff.

  9. #9
    alexd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by florian View Post
    It's called irony.
    No its called rudeness.
    Conn 10m RTH Tenor, Claude Lakey Metal 8*, Rigotti Gold 2.5 reeds.

  10. #10
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    actually the definition of irony is exactly saying things by meaning the contrary than what you state. From the Oxford dictionary:

    irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē|
    noun ( pl. -nies)
    the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
    • a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result : [with clause ] the irony is that I thought he could help me.


    a variant is sarcasm:

    sarcasm |ˈsärˌkazəm|
    noun
    the use of irony to mock or convey contempt : his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment.

  11. #11
    Forum Contributor 2008 DaveR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by alexd View Post
    No its called rudeness.
    No, not really, he's just being flipant to avoid being really, really rude. But I suppose it could be argued that Gary could just avoid reading naive posts like this one http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...s-for-yourself.... which is a prime example of someone not being able to take good advice. Really, read it and be shocked at how resistant someone can be to good advice.

    I think the internet has encouraged the teach-yourself type of student. It's terribly easy to avoid one's own issues if you have no teacher and to become conviced that there is a special button to press (gear e.g.) that will make one a better player. Incorrect I'm sorry to say. If you really want to improve get a good teacher, practice AND perform, there is really no other way.



  12. #12
    Forum Contributor 2008 DaveR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Mods, lets make this a sticky!



  13. #13
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Well, I don’t think there is anything wrong in being self taught.

    Whatever little I know (I’ve said this many times I am a modest amateur playing largely for my personal fun and at times for some kind people who seem to enjoy whatever little I can do) I’ve learned mostly by myself with a process of trials and many errors.

    This is part of the fun of playing for me and I have achieved a bit more than others which begun at the same time and see a teacher every week.

    I admit I could have learnt more or differently if I had done that too but I didn’t.

    Nevertheless, I do not underestimate the power of study and practice and, in my own personal way, I do both ..... just not the same way that other people do

    I have chosen to ignore certain aspects of the ideal learning but , since it is my own pleasure that we are talking about and I don’t complain that I haven’t achieved more I don’t see the problem for others.

    I would never advocate for others what I chose to do myself.

    Leonardo da Vinci wrote :

    “ Chi s'innamora di pratica senza scientia è come 'l nocchiere che entra in naviglio senza timone o bussola, che mai ha certezza dove si vada. Sempre la pratica deve essere edificata sopra la bona teoria". "Nessuna umana investigazione si può denominare vera scienza s'essa non passa per le matematiche dimostrazioni e nessuna certezza è dove non si può applicare una delle scienze matematiche".

    “ Whoever falls in love with practice without science is like a sailor who enters a vessel without a rudder or compass, and has never any certainty about where to go. Practice has to be always built upon good theory, no human investigation can be called true science if it doesn’t go through the mathematical demonstrations and there is no certainty where you cannot apply mathematical science “

    So, I am not a very “ mathematical” player, I chose not to be, It is not me, I know my limits. Leonardo was right but also John Coltrane was and , even though I play a shoestring, I am sincere.

  14. #14
    Forum Contributor 2008 DaveR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    Well, I don’t think there is anything wrong in being self taught.
    I agree, but my point is that as a 'self-taught' one has to be much more aware of one's avoidances and self-delusions than if one is guided by a good teacher. I learned more in my first two years at Music College than at any other time because I was lucky enough to have an excellent professor who taught me not only about music and how to practice but also how to evaluate my own playing in a way that was clear and honest.



  15. #15
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveR View Post
    I agree, but my point is that as a 'self-taught' one has to be much more aware of one's avoidances and self-delusions than if one is guided by a good teacher. I learned more in my first two years at Music College than at any other time because I was lucky enough to have an excellent professor who taught me not only about music and how to practice but also how to evaluate my own playing in a way that was clear and honest.
    and that’s great..........for you!

    I might overestimate myself at times but overall I think I am pretty aware of my limits and accept them, while I have great respect for those who have learnt and learn in a traditional way and pursue excellence but, I am convinced, that is not everybody’s way.

  16. #16
    Distinguished SOTW Member jazzcat58's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by gary View Post
    Beginners to Intermediate players - a general suggestion:

    Do not practice long tones, scales, arpeggios, etudes, sight-reading, ear-training or other such traditional fundamental exercises.

    Additionally, do not use too much of your spare time up with intense listening to music of different eras and to legendary players. And by all means, do not go out and listen to live music.

    If in doubt if you should be using up your time working on any of these fundamentals, please post threads asking for support from other forum members who also see little value in them.

    While they have only been highly valued and essential activities by legions of successful wind musicians for the last, oh, several hundreds of years, there's no reason in this day and age not to question their value with an eye to modernising your practice routine and eliminating them altogether.
    what would you advocate?,in place of traditionally based views that for many would be a way forward! or is this just a post directed at frequently asked questions that many answer time and time again?.
    Have you an alternative.
    bs gunning

  17. #17
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2008 The A Train's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by gary View Post
    Beginners to Intermediate players - a general suggestion:

    Do not practice long tones, scales, arpeggios, etudes, sight-reading, ear-training or other such traditional fundamental exercises.

    Additionally, do not use too much of your spare time up with intense listening to music of different eras and to legendary players. And by all means, do not go out and listen to live music.

    If in doubt if you should be using up your time working on any of these fundamentals, please post threads asking for support from other forum members who also see little value in them.

    While they have only been highly valued and essential activities by legions of successful wind musicians for the last, oh, several hundreds of years, there's no reason in this day and age not to question their value with an eye to modernising your practice routine and eliminating them altogether.
    Hahaha, love it! I am guilty of some of these things as well but I appreciate the message (and the humor) I will say though that there are those of us that can do all that and still not grow much as a player. I think you are a little off on your 'several hundred years' statement though because the saxophone was only patented 166 years ago and we B&I really don't care about any other wind instrument..

  18. #18
    alexd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    look things on the bright side, if you don’t want you don’t have to read it or comment about it........
    Very well said. :-)
    Conn 10m RTH Tenor, Claude Lakey Metal 8*, Rigotti Gold 2.5 reeds.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    OK, let's be honest here... which of the professional musicians here at SOTW did not look for some type of shortcut when they first started out? Be honest.....and try to remember those early years of your journey.

    Hard work, dedicated practice and an experienced teacher will always produce a better end product for the most part. However as a society we tend to view the prize and ignore the path to that prize.

    Try to remember that us beginners envy you professionals for what you've achieved.

    Diskman50

  20. #20

    Default Re: Beginners-Intermediates - fundamentals are a nuisance. Don't waste your time

    Quote Originally Posted by diskman50 View Post
    OK, let's be honest here... which of the professional musicians here at SOTW did not look for some type of shortcut when they first started out? Be honest.....and try to remember those early years of your journey.

    Hard work, dedicated practice and an experienced teacher will always produce a better end product for the most part. However as a society we tend to view the prize and ignore the path to that prize.

    Try to remember that us beginners envy you professionals for what you've achieved.

    Diskman50
    Thank you, most of us "professionals" love to share our knowledge but many of us get frustrated about the same questions again and again. And also about beginners who really believe that there are shortcuts and don't believe us that there are not. I personally get frustrated if someone asks a question like: which mouthpiece is the best for my Mark VI? Questions like this are stupid and burn up memory on the servers, which means they cost Harri money. A little search on the net and on SOTW, a little thinking on this and anyone would get enough information to know that this question is not working at all. When i started to learn the sax, there was no CD, no handy, no internet and windows was before W95. I wish i have had the access to information and the tools that exist today. Learning would have been so easy. And if i had the chance to ask important questions to some pros then i would have learned much faster. But so many young cats here ask questions that don't make sense or react to answers as if they didn't really wanted any advice at all. And this can pretty fast lead us to give ironic or sarcastic answers although we really love to share our knowledge in general.

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