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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    I never really use it (apart from teaching my pupils to play a chromatic scale - and half of them ignore me anyway )..

    .. but I do quite like having it.
    "The sound of tireless voices is the price we pay for the right to hear the music of our own opinions."

  2. #42
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by RootyTootoot View Post
    I never really use it (apart from teaching my pupils to play a chromatic scale - and half of them ignore me anyway )..

    .. but I do quite like having it.
    Presumably a slow & cumbersome chromatic scale.
    Would it not be better to teach your pupils to articulate their 1st & 2nd fingers?
    Only then will they play like Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

  3. #43

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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    I consider this key to be an essential tool, one that I use quite often - it makes some passages much easier & cleaner at speed.

  4. #44
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    Pete Thomas' in his spoof advert, advertises Sax-O-Glue...."No more finger-lifting blues to slow you down".
    Spoof! What spoof?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    Hands up anyone who would use the F# trill during a lightning fast chromatic scale from D to D.
    I do.

    But I couldn't have told you that without playing one. I don't even think about it.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    It also offers a slightly more "fluid" fingering for F# to G trill, leaving the side F# key down. Uses index finger instead of middle finger, and moves only one key cup instead of two.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  6. #46
    Distinguished SOTW member daigle65's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    ....clarinbass.
    Clearly you never worked in the Aircraft Industry.
    To advocate, or even justify, a less than necessary system which adds cost, weight & could give problems would be deemed obscene......
    That's comparing apples to oranges.
    It would probably cost even more to produce a saxophone without the F# trill key because they would need to change the tooling and aerodynamics are irrelevant.

    You'll find that most saxophone techs haven't worked in the aircraft industry, it's not exactly a prerequisite.
    " M'enfin ! " ....Gaston Lagaffe

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    This thread indicates that the F# trill key is not necessary for some people, but it is necessary for many others.

    Some people apparently believe that flipping fingers is "good enough." Just like some people find the sound they get from synthetic reeds to be "good enough." That's fine for them, but, try as they might, they're not going to convince too many other people of it. Many people believe that "good enough" is not good enough if you can do better.

  8. #48
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by daigle65 View Post

    You'll find that most saxophone techs haven't worked in the aircraft industry, it's not exactly a prerequisite.
    Only then would they understand the importance of excess weight, complexity, cost, & total reliability.
    When you can make a weightless, ever reliable, f# trill key & guard which costs nothing in terms of material & time....then fit it at no extra cost, just let me know.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

  9. #49
    Distinguished SOTW member daigle65's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    You're still comparing apples and oranges.
    Weight is an important factor in the aircraft industry but it's irrelevant for saxophones.
    Think of the extra keys that have been added on over the years (high F#, G on some sopranos, tilting spatulas), the extra key guards, the double arms. All of this adds extra weight but it doesn't take away from performance.
    " M'enfin ! " ....Gaston Lagaffe

  10. #50
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009 warp x's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    Both F and F# are available, under your fingers in the main stack....learn to use them, just as pianists & trumpeters have....oh how they would laugh at the "need" for an extra key.
    Well, please convince me and post a clip of yourself playing a real F-F# trill using only the main stack. And while you're at it do a B2-C2 trill too.

  11. #51
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    That thing is a key??? I thought it was the side spit valve...

  12. #52

    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    Presumably a slow & cumbersome chromatic scale.
    Would it not be better to teach your pupils to articulate their 1st & 2nd fingers?
    Only then will they play like Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis.
    I don't know. I think its good to articulate that third finger, especially for bar gigs where people keep yellling "play free bird".

  13. #53
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by daigle65 View Post
    You're still comparing apples and oranges.
    Weight is an important factor in the aircraft industry but it's irrelevant for saxophones.
    Think of the extra keys that have been added on over the years (high F#, G on some sopranos, tilting spatulas), the extra key guards, the double arms. All of this adds extra weight but it doesn't take away from performance.
    Do forgive me, but weight is an important area in any area of production.....you are confusing marketing gimmicks with what is necessary.

    Your earlier point concerning the tooling costs in leaving out the F# trill key is also flawed.
    Were the sax a casting or a moulding you would, to a degree, have a valid point.
    The saxophone, however, is fabricated....all the operations being carried out on jigs....to leave out one of these operations would, therefore, be no problem, & save both time & costs.

    warp x
    Just keep practising as you seem so fond of trills.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

  14. #54
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    That thing is a key??? I thought it was the side spit valve...
    Bravo....straight to the point, as ever.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    I use all of the "extras", often. They were good ideas and remain so.
    Come see me live with Platinum Express

  16. #56

    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    Do forgive me, but weight is an important area in any area of production.....you are confusing marketing gimmicks with what is necessary.
    ...
    Just keep practising as you seem so fond of trills.
    And all this from a man who swears by Buescher snap ins...

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post
    My teacher, all those years ago, maintained that the first rule of fingering was to keep your fingers in close contact with the main keys....an unequivocal rule.
    Pete Thomas' in his spoof advert, advertises Sax-O-Glue...."No more finger-lifting blues to slow you down". This would not be amusing were it not true.
    Both F and F# are available, under your fingers in the main stack....learn to use them, just as pianists & trumpeters have....oh how they would laugh at the "need" for an extra key.

    Keyboard players need only to learn to play in C....the transposing button takes care of the rest!....similar philosophy.

    Personally, like Jaws, I use only the main stacks, avoiding even aux F and the side keys, this to avoid unnecessary finger lifting. All the notes, including altissimo are available without removing one's fingers from the main stacks.....Bb is either bis, or 1&1.....Keep it Simple, an infallible rule.

    Hands up anyone who would use the F# trill during a lightning fast chromatic scale from D to D.

    clarinbass.
    Clearly you never worked in the Aircraft Industry.
    To advocate, or even justify, a less than necessary system which adds cost, weight & could give problems would be deemed obscene.
    Remember the old adage "If a butterfly lands on a bridge, the bridge bends".
    Anytime I have a chromatic line with F and F# I use the 'trill' key. That's when it's most useful!
    YSS-82Zr Warburton 'D' Series 5
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  18. #58
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009 warp x's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Beeflat View Post

    warp x
    Just keep practising as you seem so fond of trills.
    I'm not fond of trills. Where did I say so?
    You're saying you don't need the key. I'm curious to hear you play a trill without it. If you can't do it that would mean that key could be useful, even for you. No need to get smart.

  19. #59
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    Spoof! What spoof?
    Grovelling apologies....I took it to be a joke.
    Perhaps therefore, as you claim it to be serious, Mr. Happy should mention in the instructions that, under no circumstances should this product be applied to the D finger, which must, at all times, be free to grope across, just occasionally, for an out of line key.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

  20. #60
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the F# trill key necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Laughlin View Post
    Just like some people find the sound they get from synthetic reeds to be "good enough." That's fine for them, but, try as they might, they're not going to convince too many other people of it. Many people believe that "good enough" is not good enough if you can do better.
    One cannot fail to be impressed with your modesty.
    At every opportunity you are sufficiently self effacing to admit to your inability to play synthetic reeds. What is this sound that you seek?...one wonders if you are perhaps confusing the saxophone sound with that of a banjo.
    Many of us...including Pete Thomas, achieve a good sax sound from synthetics. I would be grateful if you could explain just what, exactly, is wrong with Pete Thomas' sound.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

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