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first basic sax mic - sm57 or....?

25K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  notes_norton 
#1 ·
I'm looking to buy my first mic and after some suggestions. For use at home for a bit of recording just for my own purposes, and then also for using on gigs where there isn't a mic available at the venue (eg quiet little jazz pub gigs). So nothing very fancy.

SM57 I'm sure is the most obvious option. My only reservation is the brightness/shrillness that some people refer to with this mic - I favour as dark and warm a sound as possible on tenor. But maybe there's nothing vastly better at this price range and it's just a matter of getting the EQ levels as good as possible.

From my research, some people seem to prefer the SM58 over the SM57 - although I'd always though that the SM58 was a vocal mic? I've also seen mention of the Shure Beta 57, which if I understand correctly is a step up from the SM57.

Being pretty technologically ignorant, I'm fairly unaware of what the differences in sound would be between these various options. (Although I know I will be able to hear the differences, my ears are fine! And I know when I'm on a gig and I don't like the horrible shrill sound that happens so often!) So just after some advice about what I could expect from the different options, and what's out there. If there was a better option than the SM57 (and in roughly the same price range) that offered a bit more warmth, then I'd be interested. But similarly if the SM57 is as good as anything at that level, then I'd happily go for that. Just thought I'd get a few opinions...
 
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#2 ·
then also for using on gigs where there isn't a mic available at the venue (eg quiet little jazz pub gigs)....
I can't help but ask, why would you need a mic for a 'quiet little jazz gig?' If you did need a mic in such a setting, it would probably be only for a little sound enhancement and I think an SM57 would work for that, assuming you're keeping it set at low volume. If you roll back the highs on the P.A. board, that should help reduce the brightness. It's more of an issue at higher volume, I think. But your best bet in a 'quiet jazz gig' is to not use a mic. Even in my jump blues band (elec guitar, bass, drums, sax), I will sometimes go without a mic in a small venue with good acoustics and I love it when I can get away with this. I am using an RPC 120B, though, which is a pretty powerful mpc.

I know I haven't answered your question. Hopefully someone else will know if there's a warmer mic at a similar price to the 57. An RE20 is the answer (if you have to be miked), imo, but is also much more expensive.
 
#3 ·
see this other thread http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?175082-Mic-research....

I agree with JL. Also consider what you're putting the mic through -- what mixer and speaker. If you're just going to have a mic and put it through whatever's available, then JL's suggestion of an RE20 is a good one because you'll have the best quality sound from the mic, but it might be destroyed by having to go through something like a guitar amp that is not suited for miking sax or a crappy PA or something else that's already trashed. On the other hand, if you are using a good quality powered speaker that you can EQ or going through a small mixer with EQ and then into a good quality speaker, then you can probably do fine with an SM57.
 
#4 ·
SM57 I'm sure is the most obvious option. My only reservation is the brightness/shrillness that some people refer to with this mic -
The SM57 is a fine mic, any brightness or shrillness would most likely be the result of how it is processed and monitored. I use them for recording sometimes and it gives me a great sound for many things, not just good sound but accurate, possibly apart from a very slight bit of "presence" (as opposed to being overbright or shrill).

You'll get lots of different opinions from people here, both knowledgeable and less knowledgeable, so I would ignore some of them. Even ignore my opinion (as a professional audio producer), because what counts is what you like.

At very low levels any brightness added by an SM57 is negligible, at higher levels you would be crazy not to have any equalisation in the chain or control over monitoring, in which case you can't really go wrong with an SM57.

But if the desk is adding frequencies you don't want or the monitoring is bright or shrill, it's a different story.

In my experience (studio and stage) if you have a mic like 57 with just a slight bit of presence, it's easy to remove in those situations where you don't want it, but not so easy to add it if you want it but have a sound system that lacks anything in that area.

Also very important is the room sound. As a room fills up with people it gets less and less bright or reverberant, that's often when you need that presence. JL makes a good point, on a quiet gig, if the level is very low, why have a mic? the main reason might be to actually just add a bit of presence rather than as a general sound amplifier, and for that an SM57 is ideal.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for these replies, they're helpful.

Pete, could you describe what you mean by 'presence'? (sorry if that's a standard term, my ignorance shining through)

Fair point to question why I'd need a mic for quiet gigs, I should clarify. Yes, in some situations I'd just play acoustically (and definitely prefer to, if possible). However sometimes, I might be playing with a fairly loud contemporary jazz thing, with electric guitar and drums (think Tim Berne, John Zorn kind of thing), and it would help with balance, or blend. Recently, after I did a gig where the drums were quite loud, and the guitarist was using a lot of effects and loops, it was put to me by another sax player in the audience that using a mic would help a bit with the blend, given that I was having to play with so many electric sounds - he said it wasn't so much a balance thing, he could still hear me, but just in terms of blend and sound, it would help the sax to have this. (Maybe this is related or similar to 'presence'?)

I guess in my head what I meant by quiet little pub gig might have referred less to the music I'm playing (which varies a lot), and more to audience attendance :rolleyes:

I'm sure the RE20 is great, but I couldn't justify the outlay right now, as my needs are pretty basic. I'm feeling fairly confident that the SM57 will do the job, was just interested to know of alternatives if there were any obvious ones. I'd still interested for someone to clarify how much better the Beta 57 would be, and also my query about the SM58 (I thought this was a vocal mic, but have seen sax players on this website and elsewhere saying they preferred it to the SM57, and I'm not quite clear why, or what difference you get).
 
#6 ·
Thanks for these replies, they're helpful.

Pete, could you describe what you mean by 'presence'? (sorry if that's a standard term, my ignorance shining through)
presnce is a sort of standard term, to mean a sort of very subtle and smooth lift. It is a sort of slight brightness, but specifically used to mean a nice clarity and slight sparkle rather than other sorts of brightness, which can be unpleasant, harsh, cutting etc. It's very subjective. However do a search for SM57 and presence, you'll see many reviewers mentioning a subtle curve up to about 6kHz.

Yopu also get presence controls on some guitar amps. I think it's for what I mentioned above, if you are in an acoustic situation that is very dead or muddy, then this presence will counteract that without getting "in your face" bright or treblyl.

and also my query about the SM58 (I thought this was a vocal mic, but have seen sax players on this website and elsewhere saying they preferred it to the SM57, and I'm not quite clear why, or what difference you get).
The only difference is the grill, which helps cut the breath from singers, and possibly stops them getting too close to the capsule. Any sound differences are negligible to most peoples' hearing
 
#8 ·
I'd say get the 58, although given the subtle difference from the 57 you can't go wrong with one of those either. I want to address the mention of some more exotic (and expensive) mics that was made. Stick with the Shures, they're the standard that everyone's been using for years and importantly, everyone knows how to use them in terms of treble/bass/gain adjustments made by the soundman, the guy who owns the PA, or you, depending on who's at the controls. I made the mistake early on of buying an Electro-Voice instead of a Shure and had lots of problems because the gain was lower and the sound guys didn't know that. They just saw that my mic appeared to be turned up more than the rest (because they didn't know to adjust the gain), so somewhere during the set somone would turn the knob to match the others and I was lost in the mix.

That's a lot of technical stuff but you don't have to worry about it. Get the Shure, it's worked for everyone for decades, and all the guys running sound know how to mix it properly.
 
#12 ·
I made the mistake early on of buying an Electro-Voice instead of a Shure and had lots of problems because the gain was lower and the sound guys didn't know that. They just saw that my mic appeared to be turned up more than the rest (because they didn't know to adjust the gain), so somewhere during the set somone would turn the knob to match the others and I was lost in the mix. .
I would agree with this if you were using the EV as a vocal mic. But a sax mic is going to be turned down relative to the vocal mics, so actually with the gain and volume set near equal to the vocal mics (which is where most sound guys/gals will start off) it will be close to where it needs to be. Most other mics will be too hot at an equal setting to the vocal mics. But of course, in any case, regardless of the mic someone has to dial in the sound properly. My band usually does its own sound (can't afford our own sound person), but when I have played a venue with a sound guy, they've always loved the fact I brought the EV20 and they did a great job dialing it in.

But I do agree for the situation the OP describes, an SM57 would work fine.
 
#9 ·
I remember a performer, who, for whatever reason decided that they needed to be miked with a 57. I just didn't HAVE another 57, and so I just took the windscreen off the 58. The performer was happy, I was happy. It sounded fine.
 
#10 ·
Sennheiser MD421 - it will make your sax sound more like a sax than the Sure mics.

Professional Audio Review magazine rated it the best dynamic mic for saxophones (and the second best overall dynamic mic)

It's even been inducted in the Technology Hall of Fame.

When I got my 421 I immediately noticed the difference, and so did my musician friends.
 
#11 ·
warden91, you are getting good advice. The RE20 and MD421 are super mics as is the Shure Beta 57.

However, since you have titled this "first basic sax mic - sm57 or....?", I would suggest the 57 for now for two reasons; $'s and theft.

If you do decide to go with the more expensive mics do not leave them on your mic stand if you leave the stage area for any length of time. A hungry knowledgeable musician may be lurking on the premises and it only takes a split second : (
 
#13 ·
If you do decide to go with the more expensive mics do not leave them on your mic stand if you leave the stage area for any length of time. A hungry knowledgeable musician may be lurking on the premises and it only takes a split second : (
Especially if you use an MD421 with the 'quick trigger' attachment. It practically falls of the stand if you breath on it! :)

I have to admit, it's never occured to me that someone would steal my mic off the bandstand! Thanks, John, for yet another thing to worry about...
 
#14 ·
Thanks, John, for yet another thing to worry about...
Sorry about that JL :cry: but it happens and I hate to admit it but it happened to me at a large hotel in Atlanta years ago. I was using the RE20 and we were playing for a fund raising ball. We left to go to the sandwich shop on another floor for about an hour. When we returned it was gone. Apparently one of the staff workers knew the value. I should have taken it off the stand and stored it out of sight.
 
#15 ·
I have used a 57 for years in small to mid size clubs and they are fine. One of our ex-band members is production manager for Earthworks, and we used his mics on many gigs, and to be honest, in a club with lots of people talking and bad acoustics and a beat up house PA, and your typical less-than-stellar sound person at the board, I could never tell the difference in mics either while playing or afterwards while listening to the recordings we always make. Just way too many other variables affecting the sound. I now use a Samson Airline 77 and again, the ultimate sound is no better or worse, but at least I can roam around while playing.
 
#17 ·
Several here have said the Sennheiser MD 421 or 421 II and I wholeheartedly agree I feel for a performance mic there is none that tops it.

Saying that let me add unless you are using a PA system that 30 years old or more the newer PAs (even inexpensive ones) have pretty darn good tone adjustments/equalizers. I'd recommend purchasing just about any of those lower tier brand name mics (Behringer, Mackie, etc. that you can pick up for $20 or so dollars) and get the best mix on it from your PA. Then save up your money and get a Sennheiser MD 421 when you can.
 
#19 ·
Thanks for all the responses. Both the MD421 and the RE20 sound good, but beyond my price range at the moment, and in any case probably more than I need right now. What I'm hearing from almost everyone is that the SM57 will be more than sufficient for now at least, so I'll try to get hold of one of those to start with. Ebay here I come!
 
#20 ·
SHURE BETA 57A + 58 are good mics leaning towards the warmer spectrum. they are also proven over the years to be hardy and durable.
 
#21 ·
I use the Sennheiser e835 and e935 microphones for sax, vocals and congas. Every bit the equal of a 57 or 58 in sound quality and durability. They are usually about $30 cheaper than the 57 and 58 microphones. For a while you could get Sennheiser packaged 3 packs of the e835 for around $200. You can usually find singles for around $100 new.

With all of these Sennheiser and Shure microphones, there are a lot of copies on eBay that are dogs wrapped in sheep's clothing. I got a bad 57 on eBay that was allegedly new with the warranty still valid from the factory. When it died after just a couple uses I sent it to Shure and they said it was a fake, and sent me pictures of the inside wiring compared side to side with a real 57...**** poor! They actually bought the microphone from me at what I paid! I guess companies do this for good forgeries so they can keep an eye on things...Like anything else on eBay: If the price is too good to be true, steer clear.

You really can't go wrong with any of the options listed on this thread. Unfortunately, when you are playing through a PA with a sound engineer that you don't know, he/ she will likely not know how to properly reinforce your sound. Not a knock on ALL sound guys, but most of "the good ones" seem to be failed drummers. I went to a show last week and the sound guy was supposed to be "the best in town," and talked all night about who he had worked with. When the band started, the alto player sounded like a harmonica! I heard him warming up and he was a good player. At set break I talked to the player and he snuck over to the board and adjusted himself...Second set was much better. Being a sound engineer is a lot more than just making sure everyone can be heard in the mix.
 
#24 ·
A Beta 57a is basically a live mic stand by for me. You can drive nails with the damn thing and it will still keep working. Really live, especially in comparison to the SM57/58 or an Audix SM2. I've been using one with most of my bands for the last 10 years or so for shows. Just do yourself a favor and try to forget it when you walk into a studio.
 
#25 ·
I've been using the Sennheiser 421 for over 30 years - and I gig for a living. I also sing and play guitar or keyboards (sax is my main ax). The mic is on a boom stand, so when I solo, I just point it down at the sax. In all 30 years it has never fallen off the stand, and if it is going to fall, that would be the condition for it to fall.

Here's a picture of that - I'm playing at the marina that is the birthplace of the US Navy SEALS - and all that stuff on the wall was left by SEALS - the retired SEALS come there every year for an annual muster.



That's my funky 'outdoor' sax.

As soon as you can afford it, I highly recommend it.

Sounds ten times better than the Sure I used before it.
 
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