Antigua Winds
AW Reeds
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42
  1. #1
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2012
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Question WTH is THIS ????

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTREMELY-RARE-Vintage-Martin-Committee-Experimental-Alto-Saxophone-Sax-i648-/170772439330?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c2d4a122

    I'll take a guess:

    It's not a Martin at all, just a sax which someone (at some time) tried to fake into a Martin by engraving the name on it.

    Anyone else...????
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

  2. #2
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    24,434

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    I don’t believe in EXPERIMENTAL saxophones or PROTOTYPES finding their way onto the open market without a clear provenance ( a person who had a documented interest in a particular company) besides if a horn is Experimental is not meant for selling and therefore it wouldn’t be stamped with a serial number.

    Having said this this horn looks French to me Probably a Pierret

  3. #3
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2013
    FremontSax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Fremont, CA
    Posts
    2,285

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    if it was a martin the serial number indicates it would be from about 1965. This looks more 1930s era. The wire cages protecting the tone holes are attached by weird feet. Not Conn or Buescher.

  4. #4
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    24,434

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    those are typical French cages....

    On this page Helen Kalke has video of a VERY similar (with the exception of the microtuner) Pierret (can I rest my heavy case somewhere around here )

    http://bassic-sax.ca/blog/?p=16661

  5. #5
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2012
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Yes, you CAN rest your case ! Nice detective work.

    You know....CE Winds...they sort of amaze me sometimes. Now mind you, I have purchased from them before and chris seems like a nice fellow...but, maaaan....considering the professional image they wish their establishment to project....

    ...a mistake like this should never be made. This wasn't particularly a close, judgment call. It took me all of 5 minutes to cross-reference that horn with a few online resources to disprove any association with Martin.

    Not to have done that...and then to have really concocted the cockamamie story to explain the oddness of the horn AND make it MORE MARKETABLE...
    ... (for chrissake, the engraving was left unfinished ).....

    ......that's just bad.

    It's sloppy and it raises questions of intent.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

  6. #6
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    24,434

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    man, as I said, every time I have seen the words prototype or in this case experimental.........has NEVER been true!

    The thing is that wishful thinking is never a good thing to use while you are attempting to find the roots of something that you are uncertain of but some people are prone to like the sweeter version, for whatever reason. I bet that if we all would investigate our “ family's legends” most of them would turn out to be untrue and the product of the same wishful thinking and window dressing.

    Having said that It looks like a nice horn and I probably think is more interesting to own than many Martins of the cheaper variety but it is NOT worth 1500$!

  7. #7
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    16,622

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    I think we discussed this on another thread a few weeks ago. The serial number would be just after the exit from Elkhart. The engraving style was similar to the ones marked Martin Elkhart that were made in France. Strange beast.

  8. #8
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    24,434

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    have you seen the pierret horn that I have been pointing out ?^

  9. #9
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2012
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Yeah...the other one was conceivably a Beaugnier body (or at least LeBlanc sourced from somewhere) with Yamaha finish and keywork.

    If you take a gander at these auction pics, Bruce...this one is a pre-war horn for sure (round G# table touch, for example)....

    There's nothing legit about that Martin written on the bell (or should I say Marti).
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

  10. #10
    Distinguished SOTW Technician. Oric Muso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,208

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Look a bit like a Pierret to me. Could have been bodged together with a Martin bell and Selmer neck receiver.

    There is something above the serial number that appears to be roughed out. That makes me a bit suspicious There seems to be some letters stamped in the middle and some engraving around it. Can't make out what it says.

  11. #11
    Distinguished SOTW Member ratracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    DC Metro, USA
    Posts
    4,548

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Quote Originally Posted by JayePDX View Post
    There's nothing legit about that Martin written on the bell (or should I say Marti).
    I certainly have no dog in this fight, no vested interest whatsoever, but I can see the horseshoe shaped Martin "n" to complete the name. Granted, it's not crystal clear, but it's there, at least to these 50+ year old eyes. Take another look and see if you can't see it as well.

  12. #12
    Distinguished SOTW Member VintageSaxGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,127

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    I don't see any features on it that would imply it was made by Pierret.

    However, I would agree that it's likely a European made sax.

  13. #13
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2012
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    You don't think so ? Did you take a gander at the link Milandro provided ? It looks a fair bit like that sax. RH spats, bellbrace, style of guardfeet, and the general sorta proportion of the bellpiece to the body tube is similar. Not identical, but in the same family.

    Quote Originally Posted by ratracer View Post
    I certainly have no dog in this fight, no vested interest whatsoever, but I can see the horseshoe shaped Martin "n" to complete the name. Granted, it's not crystal clear, but it's there, at least to these 50+ year old eyes. Take another look and see if you can't see it as well.

    Yes you are correct. My point being whoever started this forgery...never really completed it. It isn't as substantial nor complete an engraving as the real Martin lettering was. And the name is sorta shoe-horned in there.

    I would guess it was a stencil with the 'banner' of the engraving left blank (pretty typical). I have had a handful of such engraved horns over time. But somehow this one ended up in someone's hands who decided they could maybe make a few extra bucks off of it.

    To give credit where credit is due:
    CE did reply to my eBay message to them within a couple of hours....I do hope they will proceed with correcting the auction now. It had already gotten a lotta views before I wrote, I would doubt I am the only person who has raised this with them...
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

  14. #14
    Forum Contributor 2012 dubrosa22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,623

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Maybe just a guy named Martin owned it?

    Alto: SML 'Revision D' // Selmer 'Short Shank' Soloist C*
    Tenor: Selmer TS600L // Otto Link STM 6*; Berg 95/1/M

  15. #15
    Distinguished SOTW Member VintageSaxGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,127

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Quote Originally Posted by JayePDX View Post
    You don't think so ? Did you take a gander at the link Milandro provided ? It looks a fair bit like that sax. RH spats, bellbrace, style of guardfeet, and the general sorta proportion of the bellpiece to the body tube is similar. Not identical, but in the same family.
    I did, and I found more differences than similarities. I'm not a Pierret expert by any means...but I do own a few of them and I like to check out any Pierret branded saxes I come across (for comparison if nothing else).

    To my eyes, nothing really matches (though the bit about proportions I'd agree with...but that holds true with many French saxes).

    A few nitpicky observations in reference to the Pierret mentioned:

    The bell brace isn't quite the same. The keyguard feet are more of a smooth design (like Buffet...although many French saxes used that general design for a fairly long time). C and Eb are on separate rods, while the Martin shares one for both. On the flip side, the Pierret uses a shared rod for B and Bb while the Martin has separate rods for each. The spatula cluster is quite a bit different in general. The bell/bow/body bands are different. The Pierret has a one piece side Bb while the Martin has a more modern two piece side Bb. The octave key mechanisms on each sax are quite different. The palm keys of the Martin are far more Selmer inspired than they are Pierret based. The bow guard is again more Selmer-esq than Pierret-esq.

    Arguably, a stencil wouldn't be an identical match...but it wouldn't have been changed that much.

    And maybe it's just my eyes, but it looks like the tone holes are spaced differently between F and E on the lower stack.

    Stick an early Martin Committee tenor and a Selmer tenor in a double gig bag, leave them alone under a plane for a few hours, and you'll get one of these.

    (since we all know how much protection a gig bag offers) nyuk nyuk

  16. #16
    Distinguished Member and Bass Sax Extraordinaire Helen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    718

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Hi there folks. Well I'll just throw my 2 virtual cents into this discussion as well... FWIW....

    I agree with VintageSaxGuy. While there are similarities to the Corps Embouti sax on the page of my site you link to, there are also quite a few differences. (BTW, if you'd like to see the photos in non-slide show view, you can see them here.)

    There are literally hundreds of Pierrets you can compare this "Martin" to in the Pierret Gallery of Bassic Sax Pix. I'd have to look through many more (I've only looked through a few so far) before I'd say for sure that it is or isn't a Pierret. One thing is for sure, it does look more like the earlier Pierrets--but the left pinkie cluster looks more like those from the 1920s Selmers. I don't think I have ever seen anything like that on a Pierret before.
    One day the bass saxophone will make a comeback, and rule the earth
    Bassic Sax (The website) Just Your Bassic Blog (The weblog: part of the website, but updated daily) Bassic Sax Pix (Lots of pretty sax photos)

  17. #17
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    16,622

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    There is always the possibility that it is for a French maker named Martin (Mar-teen). Often ligs are said to be from US Martins but are the ones from France. The strange part of the horn in question is the serial number would be from a Leblanc era Martin. Maybe Leblanc was trying to come up with some vintage series.

  18. #18
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    24,434

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Martine Busine and Martin freres were French brands after all! Both bought saxophones stencilled for them.

  19. #19
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2012
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    The engraving is a direct ripoff of the USA Martin, though...and again, this horn is hella old and it's age doesn't coincide with when the Martin engraving was (legitimately) used...
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

  20. #20
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2012
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Default Re: WTH is THIS ????

    Quote Originally Posted by dubrosa22 View Post
    Maybe it's just that a guy named Martin owned it?
    ...By far the most "Now that would be almost acceptable" explanation so far !!!!!!
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •