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Thread: Delacquering- What does it do?

  1. #81
    Distinguished SOTW Technician. Oric Muso's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    If you're going to strip a horn down, you're probably going to repad it and most people go for tone hole levelling as well, so when you delacquer a horn there's a bigger difference than just delacquering.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member CONN-hunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    Any horn taken apart and rebuilt will likely sound better - lacquer or no.
    No,no,no.:tsk:

    Don't make confusion here. The issue is a horn in perfect playing condition with and without lacquer.
    The comparison is just plausible when made on instruments in playing condition.

    Take a Yamaha 82Z unlacquered and a 82Z lacquered both new out of the box and the sound can be compared. For the audience is very probably almost no difference to be heard but for the player indeed.
    Otherwise Yamaha would not offer the possibility to play it without lacquer, Yanagisawa also does, ... some Taiwanese makers...

    Of course any horn taken apart and rebuilt will sound better provided it is in need of. Nothing to do with the discussion issue on this thread.

    so , let us come back to the point.

    for me finish/ coating affects the sound, specially at the players perspective.
    Others don't think so. I can live with it.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oric Muso View Post
    You get variation from one instrument to the next, no matter how well they are made. If one was silver you'd immediately assume that was the reason. That's the way our minds work. If one was unlacquered that would account for the difference.
    Yep. Sort of like 'crop circles.' Must be aliens for outer space. No other explanation could be possible!

  4. #84
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CONN-hunter View Post
    No,no,no.:tsk:

    Don't make confusion here. The issue is a horn in perfect playing condition with and without lacquer.
    The comparison is just plausible when made on instruments in playing condition.
    This bit of the discussion was in regard to the horn in the video, we have no way of knowing if it was in perfect condition before delacquering.

    Mind you, I really doubt anyone would delacquer a horn in perfect playing condition. Would delacquering it make it perfecter?

  5. #85
    Distinguished SOTW Member Dr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CONN-hunter View Post
    No,no,no.:tsk:

    Don't make confusion here. The issue is a horn in perfect playing condition with and without lacquer.
    I'm not making confusion. I made a statement - one that happens to be irrefutable, unlike the "effects of delacquering" issue.

    You say you can live with your opinions. That's fine. I have mine also - and I keep them separate from FACTS.
    Go for The Tone,

    g



    "When you are doing well, don't forget to do good." - Sichan Siv.

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    I'm not making confusion. I made a statement - one that happens to be irrefutable, unlike the "effects of delacquering" issue.

    You say you can live with your opinions. That's fine. I have mine also - and I keep them separate from FACTS.
    +1. There is no factual data whatsoever to suggest delacquering, or lacquering, a horn will have any effect on how it sounds or plays. However, it is an indisputable fact that a horn with even the smallest leak will play much better after it has been overhauled or re-padded.

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampcabbage View Post
    Cool. I get it. Personally, I love what Emilio does for my horns. I've had my VI done by him twice. The first time he but the conical resonators on it. It achieved a nicely spread sound. However, I had it doen again recently with the brass resonators (nickel plated). And it is now very free blowing.
    I think that might be it. I have conical resonators on mine. I don't plan on changing them anytime soon, but did it change the sound when you got the new resonators?

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    Distinguished SOTW Technician. Oric Muso's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CONN-hunter View Post
    Take a Yamaha 82Z unlacquered and a 82Z lacquered both new out of the box and the sound can be compared. For the audience is very probably almost no difference to be heard but for the player indeed.
    Otherwise Yamaha would not offer the possibility to play it without lacquer, Yanagisawa also does, ... some Taiwanese makers...
    When you compare horns, how do you know what the cause is if you hear a difference? As I mentioned earlier, you can find differences in different models of the same horn. Just because you find one with a different finish it doesn't make the finish responsible.

    Horn finishes have changed since Selmer introduced the Reference horns. They had a fake antique effect where the lacquer was partially rubbed off. Other have copied this with next to no lacquer and people like the matt look and started stripping horns. Now there is big demand for bare finishes and aged looking horns. Mauriat have pushed the unlacquered instruments and they claim they sound better than the lacquered version. People follow the trend and order bare brass instruments.

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CONN-hunter View Post
    No,no,no.:tsk: .....
    Take a Yamaha 82Z unlacquered and a 82Z lacquered both new out of the box and the sound can be compared. For the audience is very probably almost no difference to be heard but for the player indeed.
    Otherwise Yamaha would not offer the possibility to play it without lacquer, Yanagisawa also does, ... some Taiwanese makers....
    No,no,no.:tsk:

    Yamaha offers the possibility to satisfy the beliefs (hence buying habits) of some of their more affluent customers. Nothing else. For the same reason flute makers offer gold flutes, selling gold at a lot more than it is worth! It's still based on belief rather than fact. All known research on the topic points to a fallacy, but that will struggle to stop an entrenched belief. We are talking religion here.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    We are talking religion here.
    yes, yes, yes. absolutely true.



    it is all about believing. Who doesn't believe, doesn't see.

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Life is full of optical illusions.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    A comment about the Yamaha saxophones with and without lacquer . . . I did just that - played their new altos in both finishes side-by-side. True, the sample was small (just did it twice as i recall) but they were basically the same in that neither one tripped my trigger. For sure, if there were differences, I couldn't attribute them to the finish. When I finally bought one, it was a lacquered version but I believe the better playing and sound quality may have been because of the selling store's set-up. Bottom line is that marketing gurus depend on our gullibility. DAVE
    Dave

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) View Post
    Life is full of optical illusions.
    And that is the Truth!

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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL View Post
    And that is the Truth!
    Sir, the Truth can have many facets depending on the perspective of the viewer or listener.
    Even colors red and green (for you and for me as normal healthy people, I guess you are as healthy as I am) can be taken wrongly (also,UN-truthly)by Daltonians.

    Similar thing can happen by hearing. One hears that, the other not. (absolute pitch, for example)

    So the much discussed issue will remain open.

    make a test:

    record your own voice and than listen to it.
    You will be surprised to "observe" that you are sounding some different that you are used to hear yourself when you speak and why?
    because our head and face bones are a resonant body. Our audition comes through the bones of our own skull to the auditive system.
    Other people get our voice als waves through the air.

    Now, the voice is the same. You do hear in a way , your audience hears the soundwaves directly through the air.

    The same happens by playing the sax. Specially there the MPC is vibrating direct at and in our mouth. The sound we get in "our auditive system" is ours, the audience is hearing smth different.

    So the "truth of sound colors" is absolutely relative.
    One hears the difference of unlacquer, the other doens't.

  15. #95
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009 warp x's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CONN-hunter View Post
    Otherwise Yamaha would not offer the possibility to play it without lacquer, Yanagisawa also does, ... some Taiwanese makers...
    It's called marketing.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    oh i see mr pete

  17. #97

    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    thx

  18. #98
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    All known research on the topic points to a fallacy, but that will struggle to stop an entrenched belief. We are talking religion here.
    We are also talking Money and Sales, from a manufacturers viewpoint.

    If enough people believe that Pink saxes produce a greater tone, then some manufacturer will supply Pink saxes to those people, as they see dollars in it.

  19. #99
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CONN-hunter View Post
    Sir, the Truth can have many facets depending on the perspective of the viewer or listener.
    Even colors red and green (for you and for me as normal healthy people, I guess you are as healthy as I am) can be taken wrongly (also,UN-truthly)by Daltonians.

    Similar thing can happen by hearing. One hears that, the other not. (absolute pitch, for example)

    So the much discussed issue will remain open.

    make a test:

    record your own voice and than listen to it.
    You will be surprised to "observe" that you are sounding some different that you are used to hear yourself when you speak and why?
    because our head and face bones are a resonant body. Our audition comes through the bones of our own skull to the auditive system.
    Other people get our voice als waves through the air.

    Now, the voice is the same. You do hear in a way , your audience hears the soundwaves directly through the air.

    The same happens by playing the sax. Specially there the MPC is vibrating direct at and in our mouth. The sound we get in "our auditive system" is ours, the audience is hearing smth different.

    So the "truth of sound colors" is absolutely relative.
    One hears the difference of unlacquer, the other doens't.
    But, Science seeks an objective truth.

    The truth of time can be different to different observers, and Einstein's theory will explain why.

    The truth of musicians perceptions probably involves quantum physics and genes and brain research and physical capabilities but really there are simpler ways to test whether a thing like lacquer has any noticeable effect such as,

    Lacquer is a covering on top of the Brass, right.

    If lacquer makes a significant difference then I can add more covering or take covering off as in delacquering.

    Just pile on whatever can stick to a saxes outer surface (that will come off again) to make more covering (ie equivalent to heavier lacquering) and then test the sound.

    The testing can be done with frequency analysis before and after to get a good idea of any difference if it exists.

  20. #100
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delacquering- What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by saxpiece View Post
    If enough people believe that Pink saxes produce a greater tone, then some manufacturer will supply Pink saxes to those people, as they see dollars in it.
    Come off it, we aren't so stupid as to think a pink saxophone would produce a greater tone. A pinker tone maybe.

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