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Thread: Keilwerth help

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    Distinguished SOTW Member patseguin's Avatar
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    Default Keilwerth help

    I took out an SXr90 tenor on trial from my local store. He's had the horn for a couple years and said he'd offer me a steal on it, like $3,600. The thing plays and sounds great, but I submitted some recordings to some friends and they seemed to like the 82z better. The Keilwerth seems to play very nice top to bottom and has a nice big sound to it. I played with a tuner though and the middle D is way sharp. Everything else is right in tune. Any feedback is welcome!
    Alto - Yamaha 82z-LN, V1 neck, Beechler Bellite 7, Olegature, RJS 2S reed

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    I only question whether that's a great deal or not... but great horns in general, big fat tone. Sort of the opposite of the Yama right?
    Ska Ska Ska Ska Ska

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    Distinguished SOTW Technician Stephen Howard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    It could be that the low C key is too high. Try screwing down the bumper to lower the height of the low C key cup and thus shade the low C tone hole more.
    This will flatten the D - though it will also flatten the low D.

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Quote Originally Posted by patseguin View Post
    I took out an SXr90 tenor on trial from my local store. He's had the horn for a couple years and said he'd offer me a steal on it, like $3,600. The thing plays and sounds great, but I submitted some recordings to some friends and they seemed to like the 82z better. The Keilwerth seems to play very nice top to bottom and has a nice big sound to it. I played with a tuner though and the middle D is way sharp. Everything else is right in tune. Any feedback is welcome!
    I got a Nickel /Silver SX90 from woodwinds and brass for 2650 brand new . I sent it back was not happy with the ergos . Got a yanagasawa 991 T love it

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    Distinguished SOTW Member patseguin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    $2650 from WWBW? They show something like $4200 last time I looked. I do agree on the ergos, they kind of stink, or I could be just used to my 82z. Prowinds offered me a "special deal" of $4,595.

    I wouldn't say it's the opposite of my 82z because the Keilwerth still has a nice bright powerful sound for Rock and Funk. It just seems to have a little more complexity and balls to it. on my 82z I use a Ponzol neck which makes a big difference. I was just surprised at how I sounded on the SX90R. Like I said though, a few guys in a private group I belong to preferred the 82z.
    Alto - Yamaha 82z-LN, V1 neck, Beechler Bellite 7, Olegature, RJS 2S reed

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    Distinguished SOTW Technician Stephen Howard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    The 82Z is a 'slow burner' of a horn. I found that it'll give you a certain amount immediately - just like any other horn - but the harder you work it the more it gives. It's quite unlike anything else Yamaha have produced, though it still has that nod towards the clarity.
    I'd maybe try to pin down what it was that the other guys liked about the Z over the SX90.

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    Stephen Howard
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Yes, first thing I'd do is ask the tech at the store to see if he/she can get the D to cooperate more. It is probably a relatively easy fix if the tech knows how to adjust keyheights to tune.

    Yes...complexity and width to the tone; along with the huge low spread, these have always been signature JK attributes.

    Keep in mind that the Yam is more up the alley of the modern sax sound paradigm. It is what a lot of people are used to hearing as far as tonal colour. All JK's always possess that lush, dark, wide tone of a vintage horn. It has always been a unique sound of JK horns. I still find it hard to believe, but the fact is that...today....such a sound is unfamiliar to most people, even a lotta seasoned musicians.

    The price IS pretty good, doing a quick perusing online.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Quote Originally Posted by JayePDX View Post
    that lush, dark, wide tone of a vintage horn. I still find it hard to believe, but the fact is that...today....such a sound is unfamiliar to most people, even a lotta seasoned musicians.
    and aint that a shame.

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Thats what I purchased it for !

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    Distinguished SOTW Member patseguin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    The store has had it for years and several guys have trialed it. In fact I tried it a couple years ago and it wouldn't play at all. He said his tech fixed it and indeed it doesn play, aside from the D issue. Given the amount of usage it's seen it's almost a used horn. I'm really hard pressed to justify $3600. Maybe I'll post a couple Soundcloud demos for you guys, one on 882 and one on JK.
    Alto - Yamaha 82z-LN, V1 neck, Beechler Bellite 7, Olegature, RJS 2S reed

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    I'm sure you can find something around here for cheaper. Problem being that you can't play test it.

    82Z's are great horns.

    I'd say if you're looking for a different sound and don't like the ergo's as much on the Keilwerth then buy a different mouthpiece and switch up the reeds.

    Anyone?
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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009 Finnerski's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Quote Originally Posted by patseguin View Post
    I took out an SXr90 tenor on trial from my local store. He's had the horn for a couple years and said he'd offer me a steal on it, like $3,600. The thing plays and sounds great, but I submitted some recordings to some friends and they seemed to like the 82z better. The Keilwerth seems to play very nice top to bottom and has a nice big sound to it. I played with a tuner though and the middle D is way sharp. Everything else is right in tune. Any feedback is welcome!
    I wouldn't call $3600 on a used JK a steal, but I prefer the JK's over the yamahas. If you have your heart set on the SX90R, shop around, you can find them cheaper than that.
    Finnerski

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    I recall so many J-K SX90R tenors that couldn't draw $2000 at SotW. $3600 is high for a shop-worn demo that doesn't play well. You'd best be in love with that horn or be prepared to take a beating when you sell it.

    I'd rather buy a used one that's already had a repad and a good setup - J-K factory pad jobs are notoriously sticky.
    Go for The Tone,

    g



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    Distinguished SOTW Member patseguin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Quote Originally Posted by littlewailer View Post
    I'm sure you can find something around here for cheaper. Problem being that you can't play test it.

    82Z's are great horns.

    I'd say if you're looking for a different sound and don't like the ergo's as much on the Keilwerth then buy a different mouthpiece and switch up the reeds.

    Anyone?
    That's exactly what I did with my 82z. I switch to a Jumbo Java and guys were telling me the 82z sounded great.
    Alto - Yamaha 82z-LN, V1 neck, Beechler Bellite 7, Olegature, RJS 2S reed

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    The Z is hard to beat. Fit and Finish, Ergos, Scale, Tuning, Altissimo, Response...so even if you perceive some sort of 'tone that came with the case' sound from Yamaha, the other attributes are hard to deny. I really can't see playing $3600 for a used horn that is in need of a repad.
    "The key to improvising is being able to play and listen at the same time."

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Pat, I have owned two 82Z tenors and I sold them both for JKs. I kind of went round and round. I had a JK, sold it for an 82Z- went back to the JK - went back to the 82Z - went back to the JK. I'll spare you the details, but this cycle illustrates that, no matter what the benefits of the Yamaha, I just could never be satisfied with the sound of the Yamaha once I had the sound of the JK in my ear.

    Regarding the ergos, I think that's a bum rap. You can get used to them. The Yamaha ergos are definitely friendly. I've had a Selmer III and those ergos were fantastic. But you know the funny thing? Every time I went back to a JK, the ergos felt like I was home again. IMO it's just a matter of getting used to it. I mean, it's hardly slowed Ernie Watts down, right?

    I believe the QC on the JKs is quite good so the problem with the D is likely a matter of adjustment. OTOH, I'm not so sure that the price isn't a bit high, depending on its condition and age. And if it's several years old, then they did not pay today's prices for it when they acquired it.

    There's a serial number/year of make someplace on the web that's not too hard to find. You might be able to get that horn's serial number, check the year of manufacture and use that as a bargaining chip to get the price lowered. Or, frankly, it it's in great condition and you find out that it's really not that old, the price might not be unreasonable. You'll just have to make that call.
    ____________________________________________________
    You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.

    TK Melody UL soprano
    Selmer S80 Serie II alto
    Julius Keilwerth SX90R tenor


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    Forum Contributor 2013 hamilton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Pat, I had that horn for a few days. Ken Whitman had it out for about a week. It plays well, I had one years ago before getting my Selmer and I was thinking I was missing something in my tone so i tried it. One thing to remember, if you travel with the horn alot it is very difficult to find a contoured/flight case for this horn. Shake the case gently with the horn in it & you can actually feel the movement inside. My First JK did this as well and i modifed an older Protec case to work.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    I agree with Dr G seems high priced. Nice horns though I had an SX90R & SX90. Sold them both and now play Barones with an extra $2000 or so in my pocket and great sounding horns.
    What does 1914 mean for you? www.jw.org
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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    +1 on Gary, Leon and Dogster. The tone is precisely what is so unique on the JK. Consider also that of all of the contemporary, serious makers (sadly, JK is in trouble now or has stopped producing ?) today.....only JK's have that big-bottomed tone. This is why people buy 'em. IMHO I also feel the ergo thing is a bit of an unearned rap....you just gotta woodshed with the horn for a week.
    So, in a lotta instances may indeed it is hard to beat a Z. But for that category of a really unique, huge and quite awesome tone in a modern-made horn, a JK kicks... hands-down.

    Now...I am a bit perplexed how this horn has now become "a shop-worn demo which doesn't play & is "in need of a repad". Did the OP say this ????
    We seem to be playing that old-school game of 'telephone'.

    If we wanna have a discussion on a fair value...we gotta get a better grip on the horn's condition, up and down, in and out.


    Now...as far as price....when you say it should almost be considered used.....what do you mean ?

    You see, if there's lacquer wear or spotting...if the pads aren't looking great....if there are a few dings...if it is a bit grungy in the nooks and crannies....if the felts seem to be compressed a bit....if there's sign of 'play' in the key rods or barrels....if there's some grunge inside, if the neck isn't quite fitting smoothly....stuff like this ...then indeed $3600 is too high.

    So if in fact it once didn't play then had a tech work it back into good shape, but it's condition is still much closer to NOS than to "decent player in decent shape"...and if she'll get a complete check and workup prior to leaving teh store again....then maybe around $3000-3200 is a more realistic price (this assuming it has none of the above issues).

    If it has some of those above conditions...start reducing the value based on those.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

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    Default Re: Keilwerth help

    Quote Originally Posted by hamilton View Post
    One thing to remember, if you travel with the horn a lot it is very difficult to find a contoured/flight case for this horn. Shake the case gently with the horn in it & you can actually feel the movement inside.
    This is a legitimate comment. After-market cases are hard to find that will fit JKs.
    caveat - I have never understood the criticism that a horn will move inside a case if you shake it. Hasn't anyone figured out that you can use a hand towel, foam pad etc to secure the sax within its case?

    I have a new ProTec XL case for my JK alto and it's a gas. I do not know how the tenor fits but there is no wiggle room whatsoever in the alto case. If you want an after-market shaped case, there are vendors you can order this case from that have liberal return policies.

    I carry my tenor in a VGV but good luck on finding one. In the past, I carried it in a light-weight Gator case, excellent for light work but I would not want to rely on its protectiveness. Also, Johnson used to make a special order JK case. Don't know if they are still doing that.

    jaye makes some good points on the condition of the horn, especially as it rates to its price. Once again reading comprehension gets trumped.
    ____________________________________________________
    You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.

    TK Melody UL soprano
    Selmer S80 Serie II alto
    Julius Keilwerth SX90R tenor


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