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What the LefreQue?

152K views 597 replies 79 participants last post by  Angel Sampedro del Río 
#1 ·
Sorry about the pun...I couldn't resist!

However, I am obsessed with any accessory that might improve my tone, technique, or artistry with the saxophone. I saw this website and was simultaneously intrigued and amused:

http://www.lefreque.com/home

Has anyone here tried this item? Can you please provide an informed review?

Thanks!
 
#422 ·
If the LefreQue passaround ever makes it to this side of the pond, put me on the list. It would be fun.

Although I'm not sure I or my bandmates could handle more emotion in my playing. I'm never short of emotion, it's technical proficiency that I lack.

What I really need is a device that will give me great control and facility with altissimo, without having to practice and develop the necessary skills.

Maybe a different mouthpiece?
 
#423 ·
Will there be a difference for those who don't hear the lefreque. In the way that they don't hear a 33mm versus a 41mm lefreque :reindeer:

This is ruining my sleep! I hear the tonal difference clearly :confused: does it make me victim of double self delusion :smilebox:


Today I received my second lefreque. I've already got the 33 mm vintage brass it's been on my horn despite I'm not injoying putting it on and of (not to mention trying hard not droping it in dark place) since I got it. I do like for all the reasons I've said before though not because of more emotion but I must admit greater ease of expression

I've only had a short time to test the 41 mm recommended for jazz on tenor and not surprissingly it enhance the darker quality of the tone. The Borgani has a dark glow, now it's glowing even more, I love it!
 
#428 ·
That is simple Then! “ Misterie” solved!........and that was achieved by the simple means of application of unrelated reasoning. If a diapason works this way then....... or, since a cable cannot reproduce ( if you say so......) all the different instruments one by one then .......

LeFreque works! Everyone’s happy (well, almost!)
 
#430 ·
of course the old reasoning , if you can’t hear it it is your fault, the " you are hearing impaired " thing..........we have had people claiming a special gift before that wouldn’t be shared by those who can’t hear what they hear. A nice way to make impossible any discussion. Same thing as the teapot. I can see it and I know it is there, if you can’t see it it is your problem, not mine.
 
#432 ·
of course the old reasoning , if you can't hear it it is your fault, the " you are hearing impaired " thing..........we have had people claiming a special gift before that wouldn't be shared by those who can't hear what they hear. A nice way to make impossible any discussion. Same thing as the teapot. I can see it and I know it is there, if you can't see it it is your problem, not mine.
I don't think it is yours, or a fault at all, that you can't hear it. I just don't want you to make a problem that I can.

Did you ever tried one? I don't mean in a mean way.. If you get the chance try it without, 33 mm and 41 mm vice versa, try it over periode, to me the difference is not always obvious, then sometimes it is very obvious, a part of is the feel of the instrument when I'm playing. As I said before I might end up not using it.. And you might end up using it :twisted:
 
#435 ·
Obviously, anyone can use whatever they want.

Someone could rub garlic all over their Sax and who would care except maybe some bandmates keeping a fair distance away.

The question is, does the thing work and why would it work and how does it work.

No details on how the LeFreQue might possibly work have surfaced, ie things like how the LeFreQue changes the coupling between the air column and the wall vibrations.

There are just things like "It works for me" and "It doesn't work for me" and these are like asking what someones favourite colour is, because they are just some peoples opinions and preferences which is ok but it doesn't mean that it means anything to anyone else and nothing is shown on how the thing like a LeFreQue works using physics which explains how things like vibrations work.
 
#438 ·
It doesn't matter how (and if) it works. Some people say it does (for them) so they use it. All the stuff about emotion etc etc is just advertising nonsense, but that's nothing new.
These things obviously do sell and players do use them, and I guess that's all the proof the manufacturer needs.
 
#437 ·
well, rubbing a little nano liquid on the outside (or even the inside :twisted:) could do wonders..........sometimes it works, but yet again, some other times not.........

read the ad:

"..Nano Liquid is a collection of ultra-fine particles (.005 micron diameter) composed mainly of carbon and metals dissolved in thoroughly tested and unique oil by a special distributed processing method. When Nano Liquid is applied to the instrument's metal keys, the included ultra-fine particles spread out quickly in the oil to cover the surface of the metallic surface. The liquid works by spreading out particles that repair irregularities on the metallic surface at the microscopic level and work to change the surface from "points of contacts" to "surfaces of contact". The thoroughly tested, unique oil fills cracks in the keys and helps move ultra-fine particles making its adhesive effect complete. From this movement, after Nano Liquid is applied the loss of energy from the metal keys approaches zero. After using Nano Liquid the oomph of your music rises sharply and the level of clarity of your notes rapidly increases. The noise of non- harmonic tones caused by metal contacts is decreased and tones become perfectly clear with a sharp harmonic structure. The connection between musician and instrument is strengthened and you're able to freely control your instrument without stress. The particles used in Nano Liquid, being an extremely small size, have very little friction and don't grind or scrape contact surfaces. Because of the highly stable oil used, metal and plastic coatings are not damaged and our product can safely be used on any kind of wind instrument......."

The standard version is $54, the EX is $ 75............and you will play a lot better, way much more emotion!

 
#441 ·
Do my ears deceive me, or are they playing louder with the LeFreQue.

Play softer and it obviously sounds different from playing louder due to the Fletcher-Munson curves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves and other things like the airstream of the player affecting the harmonic content.

Alternate between turning something (cd player or whatever) up and down and hear what happens.







 
#443 ·
Do my ears deceive me, or are they playing louder with the LeFreQue.
It sure sounds that way to me. I kept comparing a couple of bars in each vid with their counterparts in the comparison vid, selecting different passages throughout the pairs of vids, and my reaction every time was that he's playing louder, he's putting more air into it.
 
#445 ·
In the beginning of the LeFreque saga I said, that Hans was honestly thinking that this does something, and despite his way to deal with me and others who were unconvinced, I still think so.

Of course playing a demonstration of a sound altering implement with and without the implement, knowing that the implement is on, shows absolutely nothing.

One can realistically play differently, even if honest, because that is what a saxophone player does, continuously, changing his embouchure to conform to an ideal sound in his head.

Don Menza shows clearly how one can change his sound ( more or less emotion, at will) . He does this consciously. The LeFreque demonstrators do this unconsciously.

 
#446 ·
I listened to those clips with & without the Lefreak, and to me they sounded identical except, as was pointed out, maybe they played slightly louder or closer to the mic with the Lefreak, but even so the tone quality and 'feel' was identical, at least on my headphones.

Don Menza shows clearly how one can change his sound ( more or less emotion, at will) . He does this consciously. The LeFreque demonstrators do this unconsciously.
EXACTLY! I love that Don Menza clip. He really shows what can be done in terms of shaping and altering sound just using your airstream & embouchure, at least with a Link...
 
#448 ·
You are making assumptions.

I have, although briefly, at a session where someone who is (still) an enthusiast shared his with me. I saw no reason to buy it or continue with this meaningless experience.

I also have heard the inventor doing his thing right in front of me.

I didn’t hear anything. I suppose you won’t listen either.
 
#449 ·
I didn't hear anything. I suppose you won't listen either.
My previous post about hearing (passive) and listening (active) wanted to point that some aspects of sound perception come with training. There are classical records with horribly out of tune trumpets that almost nobody notices but I find really creepy.

If we talk about player's perception, we should not bother about the listener.
If we talk about the effective sound, any listener will alway be subject to the claim of "untrained ear" or "expectancy effect".
Unless we formalize what we mean with "it sounds better". In my limited experience with the Gadget, I would play mid C#/D many many times, with and without, recording it properly and analizing the spectrum of each (looped) note

This could substantiate my claim of "evenness across the registers".

Otherwise the debate will still be
- "you can't hear it!"
- "yours is self suggestion!"
- "you can't hear it!"
- "yours is self suggestion!"- "you can't hear it!"
- "yours is self suggestion!"....

My experience with the gadget is what keeps me curious on the subject (I felt a difference), it is not, and it cannot be, a proof.
 
#450 ·
There is also no real proof that the LeFreQue doesn't work as advertised but,

The Saxophones wall vibrations would have to considerably influence the sound of a Saxophone before the LeFreQue could even be considered to work.

The more emotion thing would be hard to prove.

---------------------

Perceptions?

A drummer in a band is probably not perceiving what the guitarist is and vice versa.

Has anyone listened to a track trying to focus on just one instrument like the drums, it's very interesting because the drummer might be doing things that don't get noticed otherwise and it's all just perceptions.

It's also interesting if someone can play 2 or more instruments and they can have different perceptions of the same song using different instruments.
 
#452 ·
There is also no real proof that the LeFreQue doesn't work as advertised
We will never be able to prove that it increases emotion I suppose, and the thing is it seems to work for some people but not others. A double blind test should be able to prove whether the advertising claims hold up though.
 
#451 ·
I don’t have a problem with anyone claiming that device X, Y, or even, G-d forbid, Z, does anything for them.

We’ve heard it any possible way. But if unsubstantiated claims to the LeFreque being the sonic equivalents of being touched by an healer, then we must allow similar claims from any of the other sonic devices, however unlikely, and that includes the P.Ligging and the Nano Liquid.

Please do, carry on believing, selling, using, propagating whatever. Your freedom to do so cannot be halted by my freedom to disagree.

Relativism has its place, if not its merits, in this entitlement world of ours where it seems that the mere existence of anyone guarantees the fact that anyone can claim any relative truth about anything and say that it is his own truth despite logic, science, or even objective perception.

Enjoy!
However, the next time anyone says that horn so and so, or mouthpiece so and so is the best thing invented after the invention of hot buns or sliced bread and YOU disagree , think about the relativistic option! It applies to the LeFreque AND anything else.


Is someone says item so and so is great and sounds fantastic because he feels it (or says he feels it), it has to be be true ........and there is no way to disagree, even if or when YOU don’t agree.


Proof, what proof? I feel it, therefore it is true.
 
#457 ·
It was only a matter of time til the LeFreque rose from the ashes.

Let the mud-slinging begin!!

:popcorn::popcorn::pepsi:
 
#458 ·
The ensuing conversation with my friend revealed (to me at least) that it's all about how he perceives the sound he produces; he also claims that a euphonium student showed marked improvement in tone with the device, but that as well can, I think, be credited to the perception of the student--he thinks he's getting a benefit, so he gets a benefit. In any case, the demo won't take place tomorrow after all, because he only has the size for tuba. I offered to listen to him play it, but no response yet.
 
#463 ·
Superstition is the word among all sorts of performing artists.

It is only human to believe that you put on something or rub something else and this will change things. But this is somewhat different.

In the case of the LeFreque ( and many more other such attributes) pseudo science is used to give credibility to the charm. So yes vibrations occur in the metal or wood of a wind instrument, they are not the cause of the sound, nor they contribute to the sound but they are the product of the sound, but that doesn’t seem to bother anyone.

So someone thinks, if I can preserve or enhance ( weren’t we talking physics? energy cannot be enhanced) those vibrations the sound (which is the cause, not the effect of those passive vibration) will be affected after all a saxophone is like a cymbal?

NO? NO!

But ok, let’s not consider this.

Science is claimed ( because the justification is all pseudo-scientific about vibrations and sound) but no science it is used to assess the actual variation.

It is a bit like the old additives for petrol claiming with pseudo science that they gave more power but never showing that there was more power given with an experiment.

So first we proceed in explaining how we need to bridge vibrations ( because of pseudo scientific reasons which are hinting studies ) and then we say but it is all in the emotion that the musician gets given by the attribute.

LeFreque promised tho have its product studied by some scientific institution and then they never did.

We might as well say that anointing instruments with Pete Thomas’ snake oil improves the feeling of well being of the player
 
#468 ·
OK--so I heard it demonstrated on the tuba. I heard no difference, but the player insisted that the difference was there, particularly with respect to slurring and to low note production. His most repeated words were "less effort." I insisted that this was all about placebo effect and perception, but he's been won over. Of course, he thinks that I hear no difference because I'm already skeptical and that I will have to try it myself.
 
#469 ·
The “ I feel even if you can’t hear it” stalemate can only be solved with a blind test. The player would have to identify a number of times correctly whether is is playing with or without the gizmo when blindfolded ( the test needs to prove a statistically relevant improvement above the 50% chance to get it right anyway just by guessing).

Anyway even then some people remain unconvinced and then the plight is the same as the Russell’s teapot.

Even that has never stopped people believing in things that nobody else sees of can verify.
 
#470 ·
The " I feel even if you can't hear it" stalemate can only be solved with a blind test. The player would have to identify a number of times correctly whether is is playing with or without the gizmo when blindfolded ( the test needs to prove a statistically relevant improvement above the 50% chance to get it right anyway just by guessing).

Anyway even then some people remain unconvinced and then the plight is the same as the Russell's teapot.

Even that has never stopped people believing in things that nobody else sees of can verify.
As I was listening and then arguing I wondered whether or not the perceived gains with the device could be transferred to gains without it. If the player really believes that he has achieved something with it that he couldn't achieve without it, then over time--once he has gotten accustomed to being able to play the pedal E or slur better or whatever--should he not be able to replicate the achievement without the thing? Would this prove that he was deluding himself in the first place? I don't know.
 
#471 ·
the sad truth is that t there's none so deaf as those who will not hear.

And in this case it is literally so.

The people who want t hear a gain will hear it. Of course they argue that skeptics do the exact opposite but that isn’t so and whenever I subjected myself to listening to these devices I never heard anything.

In the famous case of the metal hook I did do the metal hook experiment myself and never “ felt” anything different let alone heard it.
 
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