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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Here you go Woo. This is a photo of the Comm. II engraving on an alto I am selling:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/63942719@N08/6128568541/
    and here are the photos of the rest of the horn to prove that these do exist:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/6394271...ags/altocomm2/
    You can send a link to the guy or if needed, e-mail me and I will try to attach the photo(s).

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Tell the guy to get real and go buy a reed.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    You know Bruce, That persnickety trumpet guy is going to say that you stamped
    'COMM II' on there when you relacqured the horn.
    He's such a weenie...
    Old reed players are like fine wine. They only get better with age. Tom Hagen

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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Thanks Bruce! As it turns out, UPS just brought me a Comm II alto yesterday as well. Here is the text of my reply to Trumpet Guy:

    "Well, I was sure they existed, because I've had a few of them. However, I didn't want to say anything until I found some actual photos. The first set was sent to me by an online friend. The second horn I have in my hands at the moment. As you will see both are 1939/1940 Martin Comm II alto saxes with the "Lion & Crown" engraving. They are also both clearly engraved "MARTIN COMM II" right above the serial number. So, it would appear your information is in error. Here are the links:

    http://www.flickr.com//photos/639427...ltocomm2/show/

    http://s817.photobucket.com/albums/z...view=slideshow

    I hope this helps dispel the myth that the Committee label was used "to the exclusion of saxophones".

    Best regards."


    Can't wait for his reply.

  5. #25
    Distinguished SOTW Member Hornlip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woosax View Post

    Can't wait for his reply.
    You may wait and wait and wait. . . .

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    No waiting, he fired this off directly:


    Hi, thanks for the links, but I've already seen the "comm.II" stamp on horns just like yours and don't profess to know exactly what it stands for. I do know that there are no Martin saxes stamped with "comm.I" or "comm.III" either, so what does it mean? I do know that beginning in the 1940s Martin created the "Committee" trumpet line, which as you know became quite famous (Dizzy, Davis, Baker, etc). But I know also that Martin did not apply the brand to its saxophone line because none of the marketing material or saxes have "Committee" inscriptions or stamps or references to that brand. All I know is that your horn says Martin Handcraft and it is an alto without a "comm.I" stamp.

    Please note that I am not trying to discredit your listing, and I am not playing "gotcha". The thing I object to is all these web sites promoting the idea of Committee branding without any real evidence to support their claims. As far as I know Martin used the "Handcraft" brand for all its saxes until about 1945 when it totally redesigned the line and marked them as simply "The Martin Alto", "The Martin Tenor" and so on. That was contemporary with the new "Committee" brand of trumpets, trombones, etc, and is supported by its adverting material for the period through the '40s and '50s (you can verify that on http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&c=1611 on the link marked "misc" "catalogs"). The first appearance of the Committee brand on a saxophone is in the 1960s after RMC took over Martin. That is verified by information on the Saxpics web site also.

    Best regards,

    JL



    "...I've already seen the "comm.II" stamp on horns just like yours and don't profess to know exactly what it stands for..."

    ...

  7. #27
    Forum Contributor 2009 Collie's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
    Correct but the Comm. I also does not have the "I". Only the Comm II has a number. The reason to call it a III is that calling it "the Martin" is what most of the models say on it. Now if we would call it "the Martin Alto" or "the Martin Tenor" that would be OK. Also if we call it Committee as is engraved on some horns, It could be too similar to a Comm I.
    Wow a lot of Committee typing!
    The very late (SN 128xxx) Comm I do have the engraving at the bell. They lack the beautiful searchlight engraving, but they have added a "COMM I".
    I had an alto, seen a great one here in silver plating with the same engraving.
    I will upload a picture, but I am not sure if you can see it clearly (damn old Martin lacquer). You will have to look very close and use some imagination, but it will work....sorry for that!

    http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/a...raving-128.jpg

    But having a Comm I and a Comm II just sets the name for the first really (totally) engraved "Committee"....it has to be the Comm III !

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Very, very nice. Thanks Collie.

    Here was my reply:

    It's pretty clear, at least to me, that "COMM II" means "Committee II", particularly given the later use of the "COMM"ittee term on subsequent instruments across the entire Martin instrument line. To be fair, there were likely few saxophones engraved "Comm I". However, there ARE some. Near the end of the run some horns the did not have the searchlight engraving. Instead they had "COMM I" engraved on the bell. You can see one in this picture of a 1938 (128xxx) "Comm I" alto. This is not a great photo, but you can clearly see "COMM I" in the highlighted area on the bell.

    http://s817.photobucket.com/albums/z...view=slideshow

    Of course, if your previous messages are correct, this means that the use of "Committee" was used on saxophones prior to its use on trumpets

  9. #29

    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    This trumpet player is really COMMITTED to be an @$$****

  10. #30
    Forum Contributor 2009 Collie's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Well done Woosax

    If he (or she) doesn't understand this, it's really a big waste of time.....by the way....those, discussing the most, almost never buy

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Thanks. I knew from the start this guy was not a buyer. I think it's interesting to speculate though, that the "committee" term was first used on saxophones.

  12. #32
    Distinguished SOTW Member Hornlip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woosax View Post
    Thanks. I knew from the start this guy was not a buyer. I think it's interesting to speculate though, that the "committee" term was first used on saxophones.
    When the Comm. I sax was introduced I think Martin still called their top-line trumpets and cornets "Handcraft Imperial" horns, and apparently continued to do so after the Comm. II was introduced. I think they transitioned to the "Committee" brass instruments not very long before the Comm. III "The Martin" horns came out, probably right before the war.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Ssshhhh....listen....can you hear that? It's the sound of Trumpet Guy not replying. Thanks everyone

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Maybe he is at the Martin Guitar site debating why the D-28 had the letter before the number.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    I don't like the use of 'Committee' for 'The Martin' saxes built post-war. I just took a close look at my 1962 RMC tenor, and there is no 'Committee'. To me, the use of 'Committee' for these saxes is every bit as wrong as the term 'Super Balanced Action' to describe the 'Super Action' sax. Saxes should be termed according to what is engraved on them or as the manufacturer advertised them. Any other course just invites confusion.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Some of the post war saxes have Committee engraved on them.

  17. #37
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    I'm sure Bruce Bailey knows the history of Martin horns well but do others know why "Committee", 1,II, and III were used to designate the different models? It comes from the committee of players who were part of the team that made suggestions as to what they wanted to see in the design of each different model. The 3 committees were made up of 3 different groups of players of the era the models were made. Makes some sense when we know this.
    "there are two means of refuge from the misery of life-music and cats," Dr. Albert Schweitzer

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Well, Trumpet Guy could only remain silent for so long....I think that the fact I sent him the picture of "COMM I" engraved on the bell (courtesy of Collie above) combined with the fact that I listed two more horns that I called Martin "Committee" might have put him over the edge:

    Message from Trumpet Guy (after viewing Comm I on the bell): Sorry, your picture is so unclear that I can't agree with your view. I don't know what "comm.II" means, and neither does anybody that I have contacted. But I am sure that it does not mean "Committee". If that was the brand, it would have been more prominently displayed, it would not be an abbreviation on the stack, it would be on the bell big and clear "Committee". But that did not occur until much later (1960s), according to the information and evidence that is available. My information is documented. If you have something more substantial, let me know. You and other sellers who believe what you think is true are grossly misrepresenting the facts that are available. Best regards,

    My reply(after finding a much cleaner undisputable picture of "Committee" engraved on the bell "big and clear"):

    Ok, check THIS out:

    http://www.getasax.com/product_info....roducts_id=204

    And in particular THIS picture
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1181481...90528653202658

    What you see here is a 1941 Committee II tenor sax. It is engraved COMM II by the serial number, and in the crystal clear picture is engraved "COMMITTEE" on the bell.

    Trumpet Guy reply (as predicted 5 days ago by Bandmommy): Based upon my research, I conclude that the information provided is inaccurate, and I believe the engraving on the bell is a forgery. The horn is a Martin "Handcraft" tenor, 1941 vintage, with the "comm.II" stamp, the meaning of which is still undetermined...

    I can only shake my head and wonder...

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Send him to www.themartinstory.net and there may be a few bazillion photos and text on this.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Why is it called Committee III?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woosax View Post
    Well, Trumpet Guy could only remain silent for so long....I think that the fact I sent him the picture of "COMM I" engraved on the bell (courtesy of Collie above) combined with the fact that I listed two more horns that I called Martin "Committee" might have put him over the edge:

    Message from Trumpet Guy (after viewing Comm I on the bell): Sorry, your picture is so unclear that I can't agree with your view. I don't know what "comm.II" means, and neither does anybody that I have contacted. But I am sure that it does not mean "Committee". If that was the brand, it would have been more prominently displayed, it would not be an abbreviation on the stack, it would be on the bell big and clear "Committee". But that did not occur until much later (1960s), according to the information and evidence that is available. My information is documented. If you have something more substantial, let me know. You and other sellers who believe what you think is true are grossly misrepresenting the facts that are available. Best regards,

    My reply(after finding a much cleaner undisputable picture of "Committee" engraved on the bell "big and clear"):

    Ok, check THIS out:

    http://www.getasax.com/product_info....roducts_id=204

    And in particular THIS picture
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1181481...90528653202658

    What you see here is a 1941 Committee II tenor sax. It is engraved COMM II by the serial number, and in the crystal clear picture is engraved "COMMITTEE" on the bell.

    [B]Trumpet Guy reply (as predicted 5 days ago by Bandmommy)[/B]: Based upon my research, I conclude that the information provided is inaccurate, and I believe the engraving on the bell is a forgery. The horn is a Martin "Handcraft" tenor, 1941 vintage, with the "comm.II" stamp, the meaning of which is still undetermined...

    I can only shake my head and wonder...
    !!I KNEW IT!!
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