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Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

40K views 189 replies 46 participants last post by  kymarto 
#1 ·
Per the Woodwind and Brasswind (presumably lifted from Yamaha literature). While the saxophone isn't addressed, the effect of plating on clarinet keys and posts didn't just nibble at the edges of a discernable difference, didn't merely add warmth to the tone, but actually made "a dramatic difference".

Boy have I (many of us) been wrong on this one.

Case closed, no further room for discussion. On to precious stone key touches...

Yamaha YCL-CSG Series Professional Bb Clarinet
What is HAMILTON PLATING?
Hamilton plating is an alloy of gold and nickel. It's extremely resistant to wear and discoloration, and delivers a powerful tone with excellent projection. On the CSGH instruments, the Hamilton Plating is actually not only on the keys, but on the posts as well. In artist testing, it was shown to be a dramatic difference between instruments that had just Hamilton plated keys and Hamilton plated keys and posts.
lest you think I'm making it up:
http://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YCL-CSG-Series-Professional-Bb-Clarinet-471270-i1414054.wwbw
 
#39 ·
LOL.... Umm... basic principle of physics, energy is never lost or created, merely transformed.

If the material is getting warm (which saxes do), it must be getting the energy from somewhere, therefore this energy can be changed and it must therefore have an affect on sound.

Its like the air moves when we speak etc etc, you try playing in different air types, that effects the sound. Take some helium and then play the sax, this will effect the sound (and more noticeably) and pitch as the air (or mixture of it) travels faster.

Its all complicated process, but materials WILL effect the sound.
 
#45 ·
Spend some time with Benade's "Fundamentals of musical acoustics", once you understand it you will know the materials used to finish a saxophone have zero effect on sound.
 
#50 ·
LOL.... Umm... basic principle of physics, energy is never lost or created, merely transformed.

If the material is getting warm (which saxes do), it must be getting the energy from somewhere, therefore this energy can be changed and it must therefore have an affect on sound.
The instrument gets warm from the hot air passing through it - something in apparently great supply.
 
#41 ·
LOL yeah they do look pretty too, but many would argue that having a gold plate alto with solid silver crook would look wrong! I don't care, it sounds the best!
 
#46 ·
None of the past threads answer anything. There are two sides, and neither side will give until indisputable evidence is put forth. We can all agree that it really doesn't matter that much, but it's SOTW, people love to argue. Reading threads like this help pass time at work :bluewink:
 
#47 ·
i have. and went through the calculations on one of them.

Having worked as an engineer for many years. and seen calculations typically only yield results within 25%, or be so far off as to be rediculous. or things overlooked in calculations, or unintended effects of "minor" changes, I cant put full stock in the theory aspects
 
#52 ·
We human's revel in the beauty that our eyes see and ears hear. We have a hard time separating the two. Especially when we want a beautiful brass finish (whether one thinks a high-luster shiny brass finish or dull, greenish tarnished brass finish is more beautiful doesn't matter) and beautiful tone to correlate somehow.
 
#58 ·
If you guys want I can call around to the music shops in Grand Rapids and Lansing to see if they have one of these Hamilton plated clarinets.
I will compare it to the same clarinet with silver and nickle plated keys and let you know my findings.
I will also use the same mouthpiece/ligature/reed on all of them so there will be one constant element to the 'experiment'.

I could also ask a buddy to join me and record all 3 for review after the fact. I'll bet that they sound the same....
 
#62 ·
If you guys want I can call around to the music shops in Grand Rapids and Lansing to see if they have one of these Hamilton plated clarinets.
I will compare it to the same clarinet with silver and nickle plated keys and let you know my findings.
I will also use the same mouthpiece/ligature/reed on all of them so there will be one constant element to the 'experiment'.

I could also ask a buddy to join me and record all 3 for review after the fact. I'll bet that they sound the same....
a fine offer if you have the time. im not sure just the keys on a clarinet makes that much difference but at least this would be scientific. another problem i see though is finding an unambiguous language to describe differences in tone or sound or measurement method to quantify any subtleties.
 
#59 ·
Could you please ask them to put the various keys on the same clarinet body so we can get a more scientific comparo?

And PLEASE don't let your reed change while you're waiting.
 
#65 ·
Time isn't an issue. The problem will be locating one of these 'obscure' instruments locally.
I know that WWBW says that they have one in stock in Elkhart Indiana, BUT I'm not going to drive ~4 hours one way just to settle a 'stupid' argument.
Also, Dr. Gs' suggestion of swapping only the keys is to me, the most sensible way to do a REAL test of the keywork/post finish.
One horn, different keys, same set up. That is if the reed stays consistant.
If there is one where my favorite tech works I might be able to sweet talk him into going along with it.....
 
#67 ·
If plating the posts makes such a great difference, how does that compare to the machining tolerance of the post diameter? An undersize post with plating of unobtainium would still have less mass than a post with tolerances in the high end of the acceptable values.
 
#72 ·
It is funny that the microns thick coating of 'whatever' on the keys of a clarinet is making an impact on the sound of the instrument through all of that wood...
But it still might be fun to play all of those clarinets. I haven't given any new ones a good long test blow since 2000.
The Yamaha 'Pro' clarinets I tried then were shall we say not to my liking.
The Signature gave me goosebumps so that Yamaha with the Hamilton plating is going to have to be one hell of a horn to impress me.
 
#73 ·
Hmm... synthetic reeds to make that variable go away. Specific measurements to allow pitch to (hopefully) remain the same. same reed and mouthpiece, etc. And that robot that plays Giant steps to remove the human element. Seems pretty objective then. :twisted:
 
#74 ·
this robot was created specifically to conduct these sort of tests leaving everything, apart from the things that you wanted tested, constant. The object of the inventors (beside winning a competition) was not beauty of sound, but just creating a scientific research instrument.

 
#76 ·
And do they make Silver plated, Solid Silver and Gold plated? All I can say is that friends who are not musicians noticed significant differences with the different finishes - not scientific, but they were truly shocked as to how much of a difference it makes.

I'm not just talking about posts and keys, but the effect of materials in general.

Unless you take a regular finish sax and put on Gold plate keys of course you'll not be able to see if it makes any difference.
 
#78 ·
Yes I know!

Thats why I went to Paris and tried at least 3 in each finish, the overall characteristics for the different finishes were clearly defined. Yes each one was different but they still had similar traits in terms of either projection or warmth of sound etc
 
#93 ·
might as well give up. these guys wont change their mind. whether your ear is right or wrong about the difference, youll be happier going with your own experience if buying a horn. If you get something different or cheaper based on an "ëxpert"scientists recomendation, you wil always have doubts and kick your behind many times for making that decision.

the clarinet machine was cool bart. they did mention trouble with the mouthpiece - that would be an interesting design to see.
 
#79 ·
You can't begin to make such claims on the basis of three horns in each finish in non-blind situations. Are you sure all the horns came off the same mandrel at the same time? Check closely for differences in tolerances across the body to, say .1 mm? Without those controls you have no idea what is causing those differences.
 
#80 ·
.................and one doesn't know how much he was playing differently because he expected the horns to be different , let alone minute differences in the position of the reed or ligature when repositioning it which affect playing very dramatically
 
#88 ·
I'm pretty sure I could amaze my friends with dramatic differences, all while playing the same horn. The point is that it is well known that even microscopic differences can have a dramatic effect on sound and response.
This is very true, I know for sure that if I pick up a new horn if there is something striking about the way it looks, it will no doubt influence my playing in some subtle or even unsubtle way. I have test played quite a few P.Mauriat 66RULs now and I find there is something about them I really like, but the last thing I put it down to is the fact that it is unlacquered, I've been around long enough not to fall into that trap when trying to be make an objective assessment or review.
 
#81 ·
That's why I mentioned blind conditions. In Coltman's famous experiment, nearly all the players were convinced that they could discern clear and consistent differences between the three flutes in different materials, and could describe the differences, but when all visual and tactile clues were removed in double-blind conditions, not one could tell the difference. And they were all very surprised to find out about the tricks they played on themselves.
 
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