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Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

40K views 189 replies 46 participants last post by  kymarto 
#1 ·
Per the Woodwind and Brasswind (presumably lifted from Yamaha literature). While the saxophone isn't addressed, the effect of plating on clarinet keys and posts didn't just nibble at the edges of a discernable difference, didn't merely add warmth to the tone, but actually made "a dramatic difference".

Boy have I (many of us) been wrong on this one.

Case closed, no further room for discussion. On to precious stone key touches...

Yamaha YCL-CSG Series Professional Bb Clarinet
What is HAMILTON PLATING?
Hamilton plating is an alloy of gold and nickel. It's extremely resistant to wear and discoloration, and delivers a powerful tone with excellent projection. On the CSGH instruments, the Hamilton Plating is actually not only on the keys, but on the posts as well. In artist testing, it was shown to be a dramatic difference between instruments that had just Hamilton plated keys and Hamilton plated keys and posts.
lest you think I'm making it up:
http://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YCL-CSG-Series-Professional-Bb-Clarinet-471270-i1414054.wwbw
 
#2 ·
everyone seems to be on the fence with this one... Ill have a repairman telling me it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE...and then the next second telling me a nickel plated horn plays brighter with more projection...and then tell me removing the lacquer takes away all the overtones............. I cant take it anymore!!!!!!!!
 
#38 ·
Exactly, Yamaha has a patent on a special plating called Hamilton and they even have a prominent clarinetist endorsing clarinets with Hamilton plated keys for a warmer sound. He must have received a free set of clarinets for this endorsement. You would have to be real gullible to believe that key plating could make a difference. But maybe for some free horns I could hear a difference.
 
#4 ·
From personal experience I can say that my nickle keyed clarinet plays brighter than my silver keyed clarinet using the same mouthpiece/ligature/reed combination.
BUT
The one with nickle keys is a '73 Buffet Evette Master Model and the one with silver is a 2000 Selmer Signature.
Totally different instruments in design and tonal qualities. :)

I still think a lot of this is hype...
 
#10 ·
It's pretty easy to suss out what's going on.
If you examine the statement you'll see that they make a claim for a 'powerful tone' and 'excellent projection'.
What do these two qualtities entail?
Not a lot that can be quantified really. They don't say anything that can be nailed down - like bright, dark or warm.

In any event the statement fits in with their previously published contradictions:

"The silver-plating by nature adds some weight to the instrument because of the addition of the extra metal. This additional weight does not actually make the tone darker but adds brilliance and projection."

...and...

"The addition of two layers of plating creates a very dark, lush and warm tone."

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/misc/myths_and_materials.htm

Regards,
 
#11 ·
Per the Woodwind and Brasswind (presumably lifted from Yamaha literature). While the saxophone isn't addressed, the effect of plating on clarinet keys and posts didn't just nibble at the edges of a discernable difference, didn't merely add warmth to the tone, but actually made "a dramatic difference".
When buying a horn you have a choice:

  • Read and believe the marketing
  • Test play lots of saxophones
 
#12 ·
i had a friend in NY..really wild type...busked a lot(and in NY that is territorial and hardcore)...one day i noticed the red was not complete on his trumpet...I made a joke,"your magic marker is coming off"...he immediately to my suprise thanked me..pulled a red magic marker out of his pocket and filled in the area..... then in all seriousness,started telling me how he had switched from a black to red marker because the tone was too dark before....
 
#13 ·
Plating and materials DO make a huge difference!

When I went to Selmer in Paris I was lucky enough to try a wide range of finishes, including solid silver and gold plate, the difference? Staggering!

I've done two trips now and taken two different non musicians and they've both been amazed by the difference.

Why should clarinets be any different? I makes sense that the materials will affect the resonance of the instruments......

Perhaps people should try these things without just dismissing them.
 
#18 ·
I just find these reactions amazing as it was effectively a blind test as my non musician friends didn't have a clue which sax was which - also had no idea of the value.

They were able to hear noticeable differences that were far greater than any differences within the same finish.

If materials made no difference then why would they use expensive materials? You can't be serious that plastic clarinets sound anywhere near as good as wooden ones? Same with oboes!

Its probably why synthetic reeds haven't really taken over - reason - MATERIAL.

It's clearly vital - on a science and a logic point of view - clearly proven with people who listen.
 
#21 ·
...
If materials made no difference then why would they use expensive materials?
...
You can't be serious that plastic clarinets sound anywhere near as good as wooden ones?...
Marketing, with a view towards greater profitability. The incremental cost of the plating per clarinet is wildly less than the mark up for the instruments so treated. The manufacturer, Yamaha in this instance, is a business. While the "Hamilton plating" surely does no harm neither is it liable to be more advantagious to musical production than additional engraving is. I suppose it's just a question of time before we are presented with an elaborate engraving pattern that is "scientifically designed to enhance the propagation of vibration through the horn's metal bell via careful placement of frequency enhancing tone channelers (scratches) thereby increasing projection and clarity, with a full, dark, and focused cutting edge to your tone that will set you apart as you play lead horn."

Absolutely serious that some non wood clarinets can sound as good as wood clarinets.

FWIW take note that the assertion in the original post wasn't for the plating on the cups and keywork- it was that the plating on the POSTS made the difference. Ay carumba.
 
#22 ·
I think some people forget that YOU are the sound, the instrument just helps to facilitate it.

ie, I will always sound like me, but with the set up I have, I make the best possible sound for me. Therefore there is no one perfect set up!!!!

I'm sorry if people are under a conspiracy theory that all makers are just out to make a quick buck by giving things that aren't needed.

Agreed, engraving does nothing to the sax - purity of metals and indeed platings make a huge difference, as does mouthpiece!

I think that these are widely accepted TRUTHS.
 
#26 ·
Agreed, engraving does nothing to the sax - purity of metals and indeed platings make a huge difference, as does mouthpiece!

I think that these are widely accepted TRUTHS.
Only the bit about mouthpieces is widely accepted.

I'm sorry if people are under a conspiracy theory that all makers are just out to make a quick buck by giving things that aren't needed.
Different finishes are definitely needed, but not for the sound.

At least in the old days, Buescher didn't subscribe to the finishes myth:

 
#23 ·
#24 ·
Science is effectively baffled on this question because of the enormous variability at every step in the process - including the player and the listener.

The result is that marketing can still make whatever claims it likes - and surround them with technical-sounding generalizations, as long as no trade secrets get revealed.

BTW saxsax69, your Selmer artist credit is a good credential in general, but not when you're making such outspoken claims for Selmer products. Then it looks like paid advertising.
 
#25 ·
I became a Selmer Paris artist because I believe in their product. As you'll see I don't play exclusively their products!
 
#32 ·
But I tried about 12 different SIII Altos, the sound factors were consistent across the finish range, therefore it is logical to assume that it is the finish that affects the sound.

Unless you try this type of volume, which I accept, is hard to do, then I think it is difficult to make sweeping statements.

I however have tried a large number of the same sax, same model, same mouthpiece and reed etc and the results were very clear, not only to me but to independent listeners.

What motive would I have for promoting "other" finishes? I'm not on commission, nor do I sell the instruments, I'm just passing on MY personal experiences as I have been lucky enough to make the trip to Paris to have what is probably one of the widest selections of Selmer Paris saxophones possible.
 
#33 ·
Well, this topic sure gets people excited. and the person above with friends listening sounds pretty objective but does the players knowledge of the finish and preconcieved notions affect the sound?. Were they all the same model horne? I also agree with the person who said its hard to get a real scientific experiment where your just changing a single variable. do manufacturerers exagerate or lie to sell more horns? - Probably.

my hypotheses:
1. the air column vibration on the pure acoustic theory is the dominate effect.
2. the horn material does affect the sound because it vibrates as well and the transmision effectiveness and difference between speed of sound in the metal and air
3. the finish can affect item 2 but generally its thin so it shouldnt be a lot. Plating with a different material would have more affect than finish.
4. i suspect the closer you are to the vibrating reed, like mouthpiece and neck, the more affect material and finish will have
5. I suspect the manufacturers have done some objective experiments but dont make them public because they sell more horns with unsubstantiated claims.
 
#34 ·
Different materials are used all over the musical industry to create different sounds, the difference can be subtle, but certainly noticeable.

Timpani skins made from animal skins sound completely different to plastic ones (and there are many different types) as do the mallets used.

Vibrations are affected (or is it effected? - I never know!) in so many different ways. Ripples in a pond are a good example, do it with water, then do it with olive oil, you'll not get the same effect - why? because its a different material and it reacts in a different way. Surely this is easily proved with science???

Yamaha, Selmer etc spend a lot of money researching all these aspects to give us the best possible instruments, I think that sometimes some of us on this forum forget what an investment they do and have made....

I am more than confident that my instrument choice was done for SOUND, not because I thought it would look pretty!
 
#37 ·
Ripples in a pond and on a timpani head imply the material used is actually moving, thus giving different results depending on the material.

When you play a saxophone the material of the body doesn't move, only the reed. Your logic is flawed.
 
#42 ·
When you play a saxophone the material of the body doesn't move, only the reed. Your logic is flawed.
These arguments do usually end up with somebody giving examples of a different instrument to illustrate what happens with a saxophone. We all know the skin of a drum resonates, we all know the body of a violin or guitar resonates. You can affect the sound of such instruments by using your hands to dampen the vibrations which are going through them. However you hold a saxophone, the sound is not damped because the sound is created by the vibrations in the air column inside saxophone, which is purely a container for the shape and dimensions of that air column, so the material or finish of the container is not significantly affecting the sound.

Switching between different instruments with different finishes is never going to be a convincing scientific demonstration. I think it would make more sense to drastically exaggerate a finish, e.g cover a saxophone with a couple of inches of blue tack or lead. Then see if any differences could be heard. I think you would if it was a violin or a drum, but my money would be on on there still being no discernible difference in the sound of a saxophone treated in that way.
 
#36 ·
Says on the left, Finish E - Quadruple silver plate.
 
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