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Thread: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

  1. #1
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    Default Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Per the Woodwind and Brasswind (presumably lifted from Yamaha literature). While the saxophone isn't addressed, the effect of plating on clarinet keys and posts didn't just nibble at the edges of a discernable difference, didn't merely add warmth to the tone, but actually made "a dramatic difference".

    Boy have I (many of us) been wrong on this one.

    Case closed, no further room for discussion. On to precious stone key touches...



    Yamaha YCL-CSG Series Professional Bb Clarinet
    What is HAMILTON PLATING?
    Hamilton plating is an alloy of gold and nickel. It's extremely resistant to wear and discoloration, and delivers a powerful tone with excellent projection. On the CSGH instruments, the Hamilton Plating is actually not only on the keys, but on the posts as well. In artist testing, it was shown to be a dramatic difference between instruments that had just Hamilton plated keys and Hamilton plated keys and posts.


    lest you think I'm making it up:
    http://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YCL-CSG-S...-i1414054.wwbw

  2. #2

    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    everyone seems to be on the fence with this one... Ill have a repairman telling me it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE...and then the next second telling me a nickel plated horn plays brighter with more projection...and then tell me removing the lacquer takes away all the overtones............. I cant take it anymore!!!!!!!!
    SML Revision D Tenor Otto Link Slant Sig 7* Brillhart HR Sakshama Lost Wax Guardala MBII in sterling silver Theo Wanne Wood Ambika 7* Strathon 7* Stan Getz Legend 7*
    R&C curvy soprano Wanne Gaia 8 soprano mouthpiece

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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    yep there ya go.... A totally unbiased opinion by a major saxophone manufacturer who probably has a patent on the process. Damn the science full steam ahead for the marketing!

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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    From personal experience I can say that my nickle keyed clarinet plays brighter than my silver keyed clarinet using the same mouthpiece/ligature/reed combination.
    BUT
    The one with nickle keys is a '73 Buffet Evette Master Model and the one with silver is a 2000 Selmer Signature.
    Totally different instruments in design and tonal qualities.

    I still think a lot of this is hype...
    Old reed players are like fine wine. They only get better with age. Tom Hagen

    Play the Music, not the instrument.

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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    So.... the 2000 Selmer Signature for a New Orleans funeral parade and then switch to the 73 Buffet as the coffin peels off from the band?

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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Nah... I'd use my silver plated Abbot for the funeral.
    I won't have to worry about cracking if there should be any weeping or drunken revelry.
    Old reed players are like fine wine. They only get better with age. Tom Hagen

    Play the Music, not the instrument.

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    Forum Contributor 2012 Rondalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    so if I want a darker sound from my clarinet I should get one with silver-plated keys and let them tarnish?

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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    I don't know....
    The keys on my Signature are pretty shiny. I'll let them tarnish a bit and let you know what happens.
    Old reed players are like fine wine. They only get better with age. Tom Hagen

    Play the Music, not the instrument.

  9. #9
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    paint it black!


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    Distinguished SOTW Technician Stephen Howard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    It's pretty easy to suss out what's going on.
    If you examine the statement you'll see that they make a claim for a 'powerful tone' and 'excellent projection'.
    What do these two qualtities entail?
    Not a lot that can be quantified really. They don't say anything that can be nailed down - like bright, dark or warm.

    In any event the statement fits in with their previously published contradictions:


    "The silver-plating by nature adds some weight to the instrument because of the addition of the extra metal. This additional weight does not actually make the tone darker but adds brilliance and projection."

    ...and...

    "The addition of two layers of plating creates a very dark, lush and warm tone."


    http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/misc/myt..._materials.htm

    Regards,
    Stephen Howard
    www.shwoodwind.co.uk
    - Woodwind instrument repairs & period restorations
    Author, Haynes Saxophone Manual, Haynes Clarinet Manual

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    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry D View Post
    Per the Woodwind and Brasswind (presumably lifted from Yamaha literature). While the saxophone isn't addressed, the effect of plating on clarinet keys and posts didn't just nibble at the edges of a discernable difference, didn't merely add warmth to the tone, but actually made "a dramatic difference".

    When buying a horn you have a choice:

    • Read and believe the marketing
    • Test play lots of saxophones

  12. #12

    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    i had a friend in NY..really wild type...busked a lot(and in NY that is territorial and hardcore)...one day i noticed the red was not complete on his trumpet...I made a joke,"your magic marker is coming off"...he immediately to my suprise thanked me..pulled a red magic marker out of his pocket and filled in the area..... then in all seriousness,started telling me how he had switched from a black to red marker because the tone was too dark before....
    SML Revision D Tenor Otto Link Slant Sig 7* Brillhart HR Sakshama Lost Wax Guardala MBII in sterling silver Theo Wanne Wood Ambika 7* Strathon 7* Stan Getz Legend 7*
    R&C curvy soprano Wanne Gaia 8 soprano mouthpiece

  13. #13

    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Plating and materials DO make a huge difference!

    When I went to Selmer in Paris I was lucky enough to try a wide range of finishes, including solid silver and gold plate, the difference? Staggering!

    I've done two trips now and taken two different non musicians and they've both been amazed by the difference.

    Why should clarinets be any different? I makes sense that the materials will affect the resonance of the instruments......

    Perhaps people should try these things without just dismissing them.
    Selmer Paris Artist

    Sopranino: Selmer SII (S80 D)
    Soprano: Selmer SIII SS with GP neck (vintage Soloist D)
    Alto: Selmer SIII GP with SS neck (Concept/SD20)
    Tenor: Selmer SIII GP (S90)
    Baritone: Selmer SIII (S80 C)
    Bass: Selmer II (S80 D)

    Clarinets in Bb, A: Selmer Privilege
    Bass Clarinet: Selmer Privilege
    Eb Clarinet: Selmer Recital

    Bassoon: YFG 821
    Contrabassoon: Amati
    Oboe: Howarth XL
    Cor Anglais: Howarth XL

    Flute: Sankyo 201 + AG (Nagahara HJ)
    Piccolo: Yamaha 32

  14. #14
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by saxsaxsax69 View Post
    Plating and materials DO make a huge difference!

    When I went to Selmer in Paris I was lucky enough to try a wide range of finishes, including solid silver and gold plate, the difference? Staggering!

    I've done two trips now and taken two different non musicians and they've both been amazed by the difference.

    Why should clarinets be any different? I makes sense that the materials will affect the resonance of the instruments......

    Perhaps people should try these things without just dismissing them.
    (a) They have.

    (b) The Acoustic Physics is more reliable than someone's variable opinions and (non essential) features hyped for marketing reasons.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by saxpiece View Post
    (a) They have.

    (b) The Acoustic Physics is more reliable than someone's variable opinions and (non essential) features hyped for marketing reasons.
    ive said this before but here it goes.

    science is science until its not. "the earth is flat" "the sun circles the earth" etc.

    you rabid believers and nonbelievers leave the forum readsrs no choice but to hope for an oportunity to test play them themselves.

    Since you science guys dont seem to play plastic no finish horns, i find your comments questionable.

  16. #16
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by saxsaxsax69 View Post
    I makes sense that the materials will affect the resonance of the instruments......
    To many people, it makes sense that materials won't affect the resonance of a saxophone. I played many different saxophones, finishes, materials. I started off playing a plastic saxophone and it never even occurred to me that the plastic could make any difference.

    But as we all know, apart from the acoustic theory which says that there should be no significant difference, it's very difficult (if not practically impossible) to set up a really conclusive controlled experiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxsaxsax69 View Post
    Perhaps people should try these things without just dismissing them.
    Many people have tried them, and still dismiss them.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by saxsaxsax69 View Post
    Plating and materials DO make a huge difference!

    When I went to Selmer in Paris I was lucky enough to try a wide range of finishes, including solid silver and gold plate, the difference? Staggering!

    I've done two trips now and taken two different non musicians and they've both been amazed by the difference.

    Why should clarinets be any different? I makes sense that the materials will affect the resonance of the instruments......

    Perhaps people should try these things without just dismissing them.
    Yes, but the actual experiences of the vast majority of musicians in the real world don't matter here. We'd rather believe the insistent proclamations of a few vocal "expert" posters. Remember, you're in the SOTW Zone now . . .

  18. #18

    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    I just find these reactions amazing as it was effectively a blind test as my non musician friends didn't have a clue which sax was which - also had no idea of the value.

    They were able to hear noticeable differences that were far greater than any differences within the same finish.

    If materials made no difference then why would they use expensive materials? You can't be serious that plastic clarinets sound anywhere near as good as wooden ones? Same with oboes!

    Its probably why synthetic reeds haven't really taken over - reason - MATERIAL.

    It's clearly vital - on a science and a logic point of view - clearly proven with people who listen.
    Selmer Paris Artist

    Sopranino: Selmer SII (S80 D)
    Soprano: Selmer SIII SS with GP neck (vintage Soloist D)
    Alto: Selmer SIII GP with SS neck (Concept/SD20)
    Tenor: Selmer SIII GP (S90)
    Baritone: Selmer SIII (S80 C)
    Bass: Selmer II (S80 D)

    Clarinets in Bb, A: Selmer Privilege
    Bass Clarinet: Selmer Privilege
    Eb Clarinet: Selmer Recital

    Bassoon: YFG 821
    Contrabassoon: Amati
    Oboe: Howarth XL
    Cor Anglais: Howarth XL

    Flute: Sankyo 201 + AG (Nagahara HJ)
    Piccolo: Yamaha 32

  19. #19
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by alljoe View Post
    ive said this before but here it goes.

    science is science until its not. "the earth is flat" "the sun circles the earth" etc.

    you rabid believers and nonbelievers leave the forum readsrs no choice but to hope for an oportunity to test play them themselves.

    Since you science guys dont seem to play plastic no finish horns, i find your comments questionable.

    Go tell the NASA Scientists that the Space Shuttle hasn't got a hope of getting off the ground because they are only using science.

    All of these material claims from manufacturers seem to produce a better or a great sound.

    If material made a difference it could easily produce a 36 flavors of a@@ sound as well.

    If player A buys a sax that has a great sound due to the materials used and player B buys the same model then they both have a great sound and so the secret would eventually get out that the way to a great sound is with these materials and then all sax manufacturers would follow as there would be no doubt that these materials do produce a great sound and everyone would agree that it was a great sound and all the current pros would use a sax made from those materials and all this never happens in the real world as everyones sound concept can vary and materials are not the big secret of great tone for everyone.

    The sax was only made out of Brass because what else can it be made from in a economical way?
    Brass is the easiest option for most manufacturers and if Brass was ok for Charlie Parker then I think that I can get along by just using Brass.

  20. #20
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does plating affect the sound; no longer an issue...

    yes, the sun is definitely setting for some........those who are not aware that sun ain't moving while the horizon is rising........

    Galileo knew that but he was put on trial by those who said that their book and their reason told them differently.

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