Why don't tenors sound like this anymore?

[10mfan]

I love it!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

[dexdex]

Interesting thread, which is an answer to another, asking wether tone or speed is more important.
This month' TOTM success (Mr T's Sugar), and our recordings, whatever level of proficiency, demonstrate how many of us are seeking that good old tenor flavor.

[toughtenor]

This style of playing was the first thing that attracted me to jazz and I still LOVE it !

[mrpeebee]

If we could only turn back the hands of time and get people to want this style again in the supper clubs. Spent many hours in the 60's and 70's listening to Mr. Cobb and Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis. A very special way of playing.

Thanks for posting the clips. There is a wealth of this on You Tube.

Actually here in The Netherlands some pro players (Rinus Groeneveld, Boris van der Lek, Wouter Kiers, Ruud de Vries) like to play in that old Texas Tenor style (like me, but I do it on a much lower level). I frequently visit those concerts and jam-sessions in small clubs here and ALWAYS find it packed with people who really appreciate and love this kind of playing. But indeed also here the bigger famous clubs (like 'Bimhuis' in Amsterdam) don't feature those guys anymore. They did schedule Arnett Cobb in the Bimhuis each time he visited Netherlands back in the 80's. Maybe the admission rates of those big clubs became to high for this type of music, the packed jam-sessions in smaller clubs are normally free of charge or against low admission (like Cafe Alto in Amsterdam).

Here are some examples of Dutch tenors Rinus Groeneveld and Wouter Kiers in such a jam-session in Netherlands (also posted before here on SOTW):





(And again sorry for repeating that stuff each time!!!)

[mrpeebee]

This reminded me of another guy that NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT. I use to listed to him and Arnett all the time!

ENJOY----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2KbtxcsIvg

....THE KING OF THEM ALL ...MY SAX HERO!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYCXW...1D2D14B837700B

Wow, Gator and Jug, you can wake me up at any time for those guys! Thanks for sharing .

Ok my turn. Rrrrrusty Bryant.

And 'Mr. Bunker', also thanks for the Rusty Briant clips, great stuff .

[Farina_man]

I agree with Tim Price about listening - people nowadays want lots of noise and fast tempos - they can't concentrate long enough to enjoy something subtle, although I think singers can get away with this easier than instrumentalists.
As to the question of Arnet Cobb's setup, I don't know what he used, but I remember asking Benny Waters (who could blow a house down, even as a very old man) in the late 1970's whether he used the legendary Hawkins/Webster huge tip opening and plywood reed, and he told me that he used a wide tip but with a 1.5 reed - "Why kill yourself?", he said! I use a Beechler 7s on tenor with a 2.5 Hemke reed and I can make plenty of noise without harshness, when required. Perhaps this is down to 44 years of tenor playing in many different contexts, often without amplification? Remember, most of the players of Cobb's generation came up in big bands which had no, or only rudimentary amplification, even for the soloists. I've seen Hawkins, Buddy Tate, Benny Waters, Dexter Gordon, and Lockjaw Davis, amongst many others, over the years, and they all had the ability to go from a whisper to a roar - you had to be heard!
Thanks for the track, I hadn't heard it before.

[Meatballfoot]

Arnett played in the 40's a metal Otto Link Tone Master and later (from the 50's onwards) a metal Florida Link. I found here that he used a tip 9 and reeds number 3, but ofcourse I don't know how reliable that information is. From my own experience blowing big tip Links I guess it could be right.

I don't know whether or not that's accurate, but the first player setup on there is quite wrong. Cannonball played a meyer consistently. Either way, a Florida link on the open side would be great for that texas sound. I think a lot of it is in the reed choice, the reed definitely needs to be on the soft side to allow for that raspy sound and big subtone.

[jicaino]

I don't know whether or not that's accurate, but the first player setup on there is quite wrong. Cannonball played a meyer consistently. Either way, a Florida link on the open side would be great for that texas sound. I think a lot of it is in the reed choice, the reed definitely needs to be on the soft side to allow for that raspy sound and big subtone.

Raspy sound with a soft reed? man, you oviously haven't spend time playing an open link... have you? on a big tip link a soft(er) reed gives you a lot of things but not a raspy sound. That you get with a hard(er) reed on a big tip link.

[mrpeebee]

I can confirm from my experience (playing a Florida no USA 10* with La Voz medium reeds) what Juan mentiones above. It takes a lot of effort and power (and talent!) to do it in the way Arnett Cobb could. I can't even come close to that myself !

[rolltrane]

l'm loving this thread! great examples everybody

[bkobog]

thanks all for the great clips wow. I am blessed!!!!

[booboo5000]

Thanks for posting this. I just ordered a copy of Party Time.

[rleitch]

The ancient Texas Tenor style of playing tenor. Or does it still exist in this high quality?

I think it's important to remember that it wasn't "ancient" when these giants were playing it. An artist has to be true to his own times as well. One name that came immediately to mind when I read your post was Benny Wallace. IMO, this guy is truly carrying the torch.

http://www.benniewallace.com/

[dexdex]

The italian connection, Sam Butera with Louis Prima:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kTcjXhGbxU

[drwhippet]

Re: Why don't tenors sound like this anymore?

Because everyone's trying to sound like Brecker (albeit with a darker twist, perhaps a postmodern tip of the hat back to these old school sounds). But today's sound is mostly still Brecker-heavy with its overuse of split tones and altissimo. Perhaps Seamus Blake would be the epitome of this darker modern sound which I don't care for, mainly because the end result is that everyone sounds the same, or like slightly different versions of a Brecker clone, from Potter to McCaslin to Blake to....

[paulwl]

To add to Mr. Price's always astute observations: It's not just the club or festival audience that's changed - it's the community of players and what's influencing them.

Texas tenor is not on the menu if you're coming up in the colleges - not enough complex harmony, nothing scalar or modal, and requiring too special a setup and tone. It's probably thought of as a regional or commercially compromised style. Sort of Ben Webster Lite perhaps.

If you've studied any ethnomusicology, you might say it can't be done authentically at all unless you study with someone in the tradition - otherwise, it's just copying at one remove.

[Harvey]

Wow! Thanks to everyone for this entire thread.

The thing I get out of this, and maybe it's part of why I like Bostic, is it seems like an entirely different vocabulary. Much more articulate. It speaks in subtleties which cause you to listen with more attention. To me this will always be the real jazz.

Thanks to everyone for this post and thread.

Harv

[paulwl]

From the player's point of view, it's about what they were taught in school and what builds most organically from that. The only exceptions are if you're very old (or from a very old country like the Netherlands - they're laid back and cosmopolitan in a way American musicians can't afford to be).

[mrpeebee]

I think it's important to remember that it wasn't "ancient" when these giants were playing it. An artist has to be true to his own times as well. One name that came immediately to mind when I read your post was Benny Wallace. IMO, this guy is truly carrying the torch.

http://www.benniewallace.com/

Yes indeed, Bennie is great . I've seen him a few times live and his sound and playing certainly has it's roots in the old heavy tenor school.

[mrpeebee]

Talking about Cobb and Gator... Here is a giant player who's hardly mentioned on SOTW, but who certainly sounds inspired by both of them. Check out Red Prysock: